A cup hilt rapier for id.

[fernando]

Très jolie, Jean-Lic; with a 'marguerite' type cup .
Check the ricasso part inside the cup, if there is a makers mark or symbol.
This sword sure looks Spanish, possibly from the XVII cwntury ... in principle with a Solingen blade.

[Cerjak]

Thank you fernando ,Yes there is a symbol ,a boat for me a three-masted boat?
Have you seen the second one I just posted?
best
Jean-luc

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

... Thank you fernando ,Yes there is a symbol ,a boat for me a three-masted boat?...

No similar mark appears in the Toledo charts; which confirms the blade is not Spanish. Maybe some member knows this symbol ... which i don't recall seing myself.
... But having marks is always an added value, in any case.

Originally Posted by Cerjak

...Have you seen the second one I just posted?...

Yes i have; also a 'Margarida', with a similar guard/hilt/pommel. You should also look for marks in the same area.
Both great acquisitions .

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by fernando

No similar mark appears in the Toledo charts; which confirms the blade is not Spanish. Maybe some member knows this symbol ... which i don't recall seing myself.
... But having marks is always an added value, in any case.


Yes i have; also a 'Margarida', with a similar guard/hilt/pommel. You should also look for marks in the same area.
Both great acquisitions .

Fernando

I had A look in your sword I can see that I have one "ring" you don't have .
See atached pictures.
Best

Jean-Luc

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Fernando

I had A look in your sword I can see that I have one "ring" you don't have .
See atached pictures.
Best

Jean-Luc

I know. When i said they have similar guard set ups i was referring to both your swords, not to mine. Actually none of my cuphilted swords have a finger ring; neither you see this detail so often in cup hilts.

[Jim McDougall]

On this interesting ivory hilt cuphilt, the 'IN MENE' is an often used phrase or wording on German blades which in essence means 'in mind'.
The ship marking is most interesting, especially with this apparent three masted configuration.

A marking of a simple ship with sail and single mast was known to have been used by Clemens Kueller (Koller) 1675-1715 (noted p.143 Bezdek).
I am wondering if that might have evolved from the mark of a very stylized ship under the capital letter 'M' from mid 16th c, Milan. This is described in Wallace Collection (Mann, 1962, p.361) and stated the connection to Clemens Kueller from such mark and on the rapier of Heinrich Julius c. 1585. There is obviously a discrepancy in the period (by a century!) but this is the only 'ship' use in markings found.

I did find instance of the use of the 'ship' as an early Christian symbol representing the 'barque of St. Peter'
It is also interesting to note that the duchy of Milan was under control of Spain until the Spanish War of Succession (1701-14) which accounts (along with other Spanish provinces in Italy) for the profound connections between Italy and Spain in these swords.
The oblate pommels were a feature common on these c. 1660s+.

Nothing concrete, but interesting clues as to the period and details on this rapier.

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

On this interesting ivory hilt cuphilt, the 'IN MENE' is an often used phrase or wording on German blades which in essence means 'in mind'.
The ship marking is most interesting, especially with this apparent three masted configuration.

A marking of a simple ship with sail and single mast was known to have been used by Clemens Kueller (Koller) 1675-1715 (noted p.143 Bezdek).
I am wondering if that might have evolved from the mark of a very stylized ship under the capital letter 'M' from mid 16th c, Milan. This is described in Wallace Collection (Mann, 1962, p.361) and stated the connection to Clemens Kueller from such mark and on the rapier of Heinrich Julius c. 1585. There is obviously a discrepancy in the period (by a century!) but this is the only 'ship' use in markings found.

I did find instance of the use of the 'ship' as an early Christian symbol representing the 'barque of St. Peter'
It is also interesting to note that the duchy of Milan was under control of Spain until the Spanish War of Succession (1701-14) which accounts (along with other Spanish provinces in Italy) for the profound connections between Italy and Spain in these swords.
The oblate pommels were a feature common on these c. 1660s+.

Nothing concrete, but interesting clues as to the period and details on this rapier.

Jim

Looking to This FALCHION (plate 110 ) with a M in a ship I have thought few minutes that this three-masted boat could be a boat with a M ON the top but looking more closer I have no doubt that it is three-masted boat.
Best
Jean-Luc

[fernando]

Originally Posted by fernando

...Actually none of my cuphilted swords have a finger ring; neither you see this detail so often in cup hilts.

Unless this was a later addition ...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Unless this was a later addition ...

Maybe, but why?