A Modified Sword, but what is it now ?

Jim McDougall · 29th October 2016, 07:20 PM

I really need to be more careful in use of the term modern referring to weapon descriptions. For me that means anything in latter 19th well into 20th c.
The use of wood, and well crafted into essentially a 'karabela' style hilt is I keeping with the popularity of these type hilts in hunting swords as well as parade or dress swords. The style itself is believed to have originated in Ottoman regions, but became so popular in Poland that it became regarded as an iconic sword there as a parade level sword (though certainly used in combat also).
The style quickly transmitted into other European regions as well, in many cases likely through Ottoman influence.

It was extremely common for European swords to follow 'exotic' style, with it seems most cases leaning toward the omnipresent Ottoman influences long established much earlier and in colonial regions of other countries.
A good example is the mameluke hilts of campaigns in Egypt, which became fashionable on officers swords.

In my opinion, this blade is likely of Napoleonic period (early 19th to first quarter), as the blued panel suggests to me, as well as the styling of the scabbard and mounts. The blade shape in the tip recalls Solingen made blades of that period.

Clearly what appears to be flourished arms which is now under the collar of the hilt, shows of course the blade has been remounted. I am not sure that the AK is necessarily the initials of a maker, however there was an entry for an A and F Kirschbaum of Solingen 1814-62 (this suggests two individuals). It is noted they made sabres for Austrian hussar regiments.

Without further checking into references at this point, that would fit well into some of the ideas here. Austria was heavily influenced by Ottoman styles through its use of Balkan troops in the 18th century, and perhaps such a sabre might have been refitted in much later times as a heirloom. This might have been in recognition of the famed Pandour units of those times which became well known as auxiliary regiments through the 19th c.

Corrado, I am very interested in your comment on the flourish on the back of the blade you note as the rose of Solingen, can you elaborate more?

corrado26 · 30th October 2016, 08:55 AM

The flourish on the back of blades made in Solingen in the 18th century often show the signs shown in the fotos. Until today it is unknown what this mark/sign stands for, one thinks that it is a kind of Solingen quality proof mark.
corrado26

corrado26 · 30th October 2016, 09:10 AM

An other foto shows this mark on a Wuerttemberg infantry officers sabre M
1817
corrado26

corrado26 · 30th October 2016, 09:16 AM

The last foto with this mark : A Prussian "Bluecher-sabre" M 1811 made by "Schimmelbusch & Sohn Solingen ".
corrado26

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2016, 06:15 PM

Corrado, thank you so much for that information and the great illustrations!
I will add to my notes, and this is most interesting. Another of those great nuances in the mysteries of these blade markings, pretty exciting stuff.

drac2k · 31st October 2016, 10:00 PM

Jim, I knew what you meant by modern and I concur which your time analysis.Corrado has proven that the blade is German, probably Napoleonic and I have dug out of my collection a Turkish sword with the same kind of rivet construction.
My theory was that the sword had not had the handles repaired, but that it was assembled with them in the late 19th, early 20th century for the Turkish market, probably pre-1919.I think that the German association of the blade does not hurt my case, as they were allies in WW1.
I thank everyone for their insightful information.

canos · 9th November 2016, 05:36 PM

The mark AK on the blade might stand for: Johann Abraham KNECHT / Solingen.
* 8.07.1764 / + 6.05.1812

30th October 2016, 08:55 AM	#2
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,231	The flourish on the back of blades made in Solingen in the 18th century often show the signs shown in the fotos. Until today it is unknown what this mark/sign stands for, one thinks that it is a kind of Solingen quality proof mark. corrado26 Attached Images

30th October 2016, 09:10 AM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,231	An other foto shows this mark on a Wuerttemberg infantry officers sabre M 1817 corrado26 Attached Images

30th October 2016, 09:16 AM	#4
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,231	The last foto with this mark : A Prussian "Bluecher-sabre" M 1811 made by "Schimmelbusch & Sohn Solingen ". corrado26 Attached Images

31st October 2016, 10:00 PM	#6
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,258	Jim, I knew what you meant by modern and I concur which your time analysis.Corrado has proven that the blade is German, probably Napoleonic and I have dug out of my collection a Turkish sword with the same kind of rivet construction. My theory was that the sword had not had the handles repaired, but that it was assembled with them in the late 19th, early 20th century for the Turkish market, probably pre-1919.I think that the German association of the blade does not hurt my case, as they were allies in WW1. I thank everyone for their insightful information. Attached Images

9th November 2016, 05:36 PM	#7
canos Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 28	Mark AK The mark AK on the blade might stand for: Johann Abraham KNECHT / Solingen. * 8.07.1764 / + 6.05.1812

29th October 2016, 07:20 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	I really need to be more careful in use of the term modern referring to weapon descriptions. For me that means anything in latter 19th well into 20th c. The use of wood, and well crafted into essentially a 'karabela' style hilt is I keeping with the popularity of these type hilts in hunting swords as well as parade or dress swords. The style itself is believed to have originated in Ottoman regions, but became so popular in Poland that it became regarded as an iconic sword there as a parade level sword (though certainly used in combat also). The style quickly transmitted into other European regions as well, in many cases likely through Ottoman influence. It was extremely common for European swords to follow 'exotic' style, with it seems most cases leaning toward the omnipresent Ottoman influences long established much earlier and in colonial regions of other countries. A good example is the mameluke hilts of campaigns in Egypt, which became fashionable on officers swords. In my opinion, this blade is likely of Napoleonic period (early 19th to first quarter), as the blued panel suggests to me, as well as the styling of the scabbard and mounts. The blade shape in the tip recalls Solingen made blades of that period. Clearly what appears to be flourished arms which is now under the collar of the hilt, shows of course the blade has been remounted. I am not sure that the AK is necessarily the initials of a maker, however there was an entry for an A and F Kirschbaum of Solingen 1814-62 (this suggests two individuals). It is noted they made sabres for Austrian hussar regiments. Without further checking into references at this point, that would fit well into some of the ideas here. Austria was heavily influenced by Ottoman styles through its use of Balkan troops in the 18th century, and perhaps such a sabre might have been refitted in much later times as a heirloom. This might have been in recognition of the famed Pandour units of those times which became well known as auxiliary regiments through the 19th c. Corrado, I am very interested in your comment on the flourish on the back of the blade you note as the rose of Solingen, can you elaborate more?

30th October 2016, 06:15 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Corrado, thank you so much for that information and the great illustrations! I will add to my notes, and this is most interesting. Another of those great nuances in the mysteries of these blade markings, pretty exciting stuff.