Origins of the Mandinka saber

Iain · 11th October 2016, 09:48 PM

Hi Jim,

I think the major problem with this idea is that we don't have any signs of extensive contact with Omani traders to justify this idea.

Is a square pommel numb really all that much of an Omani idea? I am not sure personally it is. On these swords from Mande speaking peoples we see domed finials, square, etc. I am not sure any of these shapes are really so unique (rather, fairly universal!) to require much of an explanation.

There of course is a striking visual similarity between the two forms, but they are so basic, simple wrapped handles and a small finial/pommel, that I am not sure much more can be drawn from it given the breadth of a continent in between the two forms and not much of a trail of diffusion in the dividing territory.

Regarding the flared scabbard, I by no means meant to indicate this is necessarily a Darfur feature, but rather wanted to point out we see it in a variety of areas that for me dissipate the theory that this is a particularly eastern or western Sudanese feature. Rather it seems to be a fairly generalized artistic element.

Given the strong historical connections of the kaskara to Mamluk Egypt it would be interesting to compare medieval Mamluk straight sword scabbards, but sadly none survive I am aware of.

Kubur · 12th October 2016, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Jim,

I think the major problem with this idea is that we don't have any signs of extensive contact with Omani traders to justify this idea.

Given the strong historical connections of the kaskara to Mamluk Egypt it would be interesting to compare medieval Mamluk straight sword scabbards, but sadly none survive I am aware of.

It's exactly what I think, thanks Iain. These swords have a common ancestor, maybe Mamluk, maybe older... And yes we don't have the scabbards...

Iain · 12th October 2016, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

It's exactly what I think, thanks Iain. These swords have a common ancestor, maybe Mamluk, maybe older... And yes we don't have the scabbards...

This isn't to say that there can't be an Omani connection, but, I think there isn't a preponderance of evidence to suggest this is the case beyond a superficial visual similarity.

However, that's not a bad starting point and is much the same as where I started years ago with takouba. The trick is then to support that with as much evidence as possible to show how the visual similarities could have come about. At the moment I would be the first to say there is a visual similarity, but I remain unconvinced as to why.

The Mamluk comment was made only in regard to kaskara, where there is a demonstrable link.

11th October 2016, 09:48 PM	#1
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Hi Jim, I think the major problem with this idea is that we don't have any signs of extensive contact with Omani traders to justify this idea. Is a square pommel numb really all that much of an Omani idea? I am not sure personally it is. On these swords from Mande speaking peoples we see domed finials, square, etc. I am not sure any of these shapes are really so unique (rather, fairly universal!) to require much of an explanation. There of course is a striking visual similarity between the two forms, but they are so basic, simple wrapped handles and a small finial/pommel, that I am not sure much more can be drawn from it given the breadth of a continent in between the two forms and not much of a trail of diffusion in the dividing territory. Regarding the flared scabbard, I by no means meant to indicate this is necessarily a Darfur feature, but rather wanted to point out we see it in a variety of areas that for me dissipate the theory that this is a particularly eastern or western Sudanese feature. Rather it seems to be a fairly generalized artistic element. Given the strong historical connections of the kaskara to Mamluk Egypt it would be interesting to compare medieval Mamluk straight sword scabbards, but sadly none survive I am aware of.