Origins of the Mandinka saber

CharlesS · 8th October 2016, 11:28 AM

A 1907 photo postcard....

Marcus · 8th October 2016, 03:55 PM

If we recognize a Sudanese Haladie, why not call these Mandinka Kattara?

Kubur · 8th October 2016, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus

If we recognize a Sudanese Haladie, why not call these Mandinka Kattara?

Because it's only Jim's opinion.

Jim McDougall · 8th October 2016, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Because it's only Jim's opinion.

Hi Kubur,
Thank you for the note, and very much agreed, the material I post is indeed my own opinion and based on the research and notes from years past as well as resources we are all pretty much familiar with .
I'm glad you pointed this out, as I always look forward to the opinions and findings of others pertaining to the topics I address. In my opinion

that is how we learn, I know I do, as others present different views, and if the supported data warrants, my opinion does adjust accordingly.

Concerning a term to describe these sabres, it is what we have long referred to in these pages as 'the name game'. I suppose in some sense one could call these a Manding kattara, but I would imagine that would bring some dissent as well as powerful debate.

Re: haladie
The Sudanese 'haladie' noted is of course known as the Syrian dagger (Stone, 1937) and was a weapon derived from the Rapjut double bladed madu and the mendicant versions. These most probably entered the Sudanese arsenal via the Mamluks out of Syria.
I am unclear on what language the term haladie derives from.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th October 2016, 10:18 PM

It seems to me that Mendinka is the perfect descriptive term for this form which is completely different including the huge paddle style to the very ornate scabbard with tooled leather and decorated flaps in squared geometric design arrangements hung as tassles...with a crude baldric arrangement crafted from leather plaited strands with miniature shields at the points where the sword is hung. The hilt is unique with a rounded brass pommel .. again uniquely tribal and very much the Mendinka mark.

p.s. A good deal of work went into the discussion on Haladie at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=57877

Jim McDougall · 8th October 2016, 10:49 PM

Another key point, the scabbards on these carry the familiar flared ends of the Sudanese kaskara, reflecting the transmission of the Omani hilts through those regions prior to trans Saharan networks to Mali and environs. Traffic from Zanzibar into the interior certainly would account for the diffusion of these weapons, just as the so called 'Zanzibar Sword' (Demmin, 1877; Burton 1885; Buttin 1933) was transmitted from Morocco (s'boula daggers) to Zanzibar.

The cross pollination of these weapons reflect the key importance of trade networks in the diffusion of these weapon forms across vast geography .

The name game is actually more a matter of preference for collectors in describing their pieces. For those concerned with the history and development of ethnographic forms it is best to elaborate and qualify terms, rather than try to classify broadly in a category.
As 'Manding sabre' these are instantly recognized, while trying to place them in 'kattara' heading would cause confusion (in my opinion).

TVV · 10th October 2016, 07:57 AM

Do we have any actual evidence of Omani traders reaching as far as the Western Sahel? Barth does not mention any Arabian traders as far as I recall, with the caravans all being led by Tuaregs or people from the Maghreb or Hausaland. Omani trading and slave raiding activity seems to have been limited to the Eastern African coast and to Central Africa. Considering how late the incursions into the Congo occurred, I am not sure how much time there was for the form to spread all the way to what is nowadays Mali (and completely skip the Eastern Sahel in the Process).

My personal hypothesis is that the Mandingo hilt form developed totally independently and locally. One can see similarities with some dagger hilts from Western Africa (the daggers themselves have not been studied properly, but this is probably another topic). I am attaching some for comparison: the blade is inserted into a cylindrical hilt without a guard, with a circular pommel. Some of the spherical pommels are not too dissimilar to brass pommels on Mandingo swords. The Mandingo sword hilt could be a simplified version of these dagger hilts.

The similarity with Omani hilts is only limited to the shape of the hilt, however, elements such as pommels and bands on the hilts of Mandingo swords and their absence on the Omani hilt suggest to me that we may be reaching in trying to link the two.

Regards,
Teodor

8th October 2016, 11:28 AM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	A 1907 photo postcard.... Attached Images

8th October 2016, 03:55 PM	#2
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	a Kattera by any other name If we recognize a Sudanese Haladie, why not call these Mandinka Kattara?

8th October 2016, 10:18 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	It seems to me that Mendinka is the perfect descriptive term for this form which is completely different including the huge paddle style to the very ornate scabbard with tooled leather and decorated flaps in squared geometric design arrangements hung as tassles...with a crude baldric arrangement crafted from leather plaited strands with miniature shields at the points where the sword is hung. The hilt is unique with a rounded brass pommel .. again uniquely tribal and very much the Mendinka mark. p.s. A good deal of work went into the discussion on Haladie at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=57877 Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 8th October 2016 at 10:38 PM.

10th October 2016, 07:57 AM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Do we have any actual evidence of Omani traders reaching as far as the Western Sahel? Barth does not mention any Arabian traders as far as I recall, with the caravans all being led by Tuaregs or people from the Maghreb or Hausaland. Omani trading and slave raiding activity seems to have been limited to the Eastern African coast and to Central Africa. Considering how late the incursions into the Congo occurred, I am not sure how much time there was for the form to spread all the way to what is nowadays Mali (and completely skip the Eastern Sahel in the Process). My personal hypothesis is that the Mandingo hilt form developed totally independently and locally. One can see similarities with some dagger hilts from Western Africa (the daggers themselves have not been studied properly, but this is probably another topic). I am attaching some for comparison: the blade is inserted into a cylindrical hilt without a guard, with a circular pommel. Some of the spherical pommels are not too dissimilar to brass pommels on Mandingo swords. The Mandingo sword hilt could be a simplified version of these dagger hilts. The similarity with Omani hilts is only limited to the shape of the hilt, however, elements such as pommels and bands on the hilts of Mandingo swords and their absence on the Omani hilt suggest to me that we may be reaching in trying to link the two. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

8th October 2016, 10:49 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Another key point, the scabbards on these carry the familiar flared ends of the Sudanese kaskara, reflecting the transmission of the Omani hilts through those regions prior to trans Saharan networks to Mali and environs. Traffic from Zanzibar into the interior certainly would account for the diffusion of these weapons, just as the so called 'Zanzibar Sword' (Demmin, 1877; Burton 1885; Buttin 1933) was transmitted from Morocco (s'boula daggers) to Zanzibar. The cross pollination of these weapons reflect the key importance of trade networks in the diffusion of these weapon forms across vast geography . The name game is actually more a matter of preference for collectors in describing their pieces. For those concerned with the history and development of ethnographic forms it is best to elaborate and qualify terms, rather than try to classify broadly in a category. As 'Manding sabre' these are instantly recognized, while trying to place them in 'kattara' heading would cause confusion (in my opinion).