Meteorite iron?

A. G. Maisey · 24th September 2016, 02:10 AM

The definitive reference for an answer to this question is a paper by Bennet Bronson that was published in "Historical Metallurgy", Vol. 21, No.1, 1987. The paper is "Terrestrial and Meteoritic Nickel in the Indonesian Kris".

Very briefly, if the keris is not a very high class Central Javanese keris made between about 1800 and 1930 it is extremely unlikely to contain meteoritic material.

I think Mpu Djeno made a keris containing meteoritic material, Pande Keris Yantono and I made two during the 1990's, I think a couple more have been made since 2000.

Keris containing meteorite are very scarce and extremely expensive.

NotoriousCal · 24th September 2016, 02:47 AM

Thank you both for your reply. I would think that a keris would be more expensive having meteorite. I definitely would want one if I could find one.

Jean · 24th September 2016, 09:25 AM

Hello Alan,
You are killing the dreams of many collectors!

A. G. Maisey · 24th September 2016, 01:16 PM

Jean, love is only real when it recognises deficiencies and accepts them.

David · 24th September 2016, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, love is only real when it recognises deficiencies and accepts them.

So true...though i am not sure that i recognize the lack of meteoric material in any particular keris as a deficiency.

A. G. Maisey · 24th September 2016, 08:32 PM

In a physical sense, of course it is not, David, but in the sense of an additional attribute, most especially for Jean's dreamers, and for salesmen, it may be a severe deficiency.

Jean · 28th September 2016, 08:48 AM

Hello Alan,
Sorry if this subject was raised earlier in the forum but some members of the Solo kris circles claim that meteorite iron was used for making pamor blades besides the Prambanan meteore. From memory they identify it from the prickly touch, look, and "resonance" for those able to feel it.
These 2 blades are examples of what they identify as made from meteoric pamor, what do you think?
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 28th September 2016, 09:59 AM

Yes, it is a widely held belief that pamor made from meteorite does have a very slightly prickly feel to it. The two blades that I have been involved in making that definitely contain meteorite do have a very faint prickly feel. Another blade that I have which is attributable to Jayasukadgo also has a very faint prickly feel. Jayasukadgo was a Surakarta empu during the era when Surakarta empus did sometimes use meteoritic material.

However --- over the years I have handled other blades that have very little possibility of containing meteorite, and these have also had a very slight prickly feel.

"Resonance" ?

Yeah, right. For those who believe.

The "look" of the blade?

Here is a pic of a blade that very definitely has pamor made from meteorite.

Does it have some sort of distinctive look that jumps out at you and screams "METEOR!!!" ?

Jean, I've been exposed to these beliefs for a very long time. If somebody believes that he can identify meteor by look, touch, feel, or because it whispers to him when he's asleep, who am I to argue with him?

In my experience the claim that a blade contains meteoritic material begins with the way it looks:- if it has pamor material that is a little bit out of the ordinary and cannot be easily identified, then this is a sign that it is probably meteor --- for those who believe.

Then the "testing" begins, the feeling of the blade with eyes turned skywards or slightly closed, the deep concentration, the announcement that it feels slightly prickly.

Somebody else who is present will feel the blade and confirm the prickly feel --- would they dare not to? This is Jawa don't forget. Avoid conflict and disagreement at all times.

Then the edge of the blade will be flicked with a fingernail and it doesn't matter what sound it makes, this will be a sure sign that it is meteoritic pamor.

It must be very clearly understood that virtually all keris knowledge as it is today is in fact a belief system, or a network of belief systems. This knowledge is based in societal and cultural beliefs and mores and has very little to do with reality.

If we are to understand the keris, we must understand these beliefs and when the occasion calls for it we must not challenge these beliefs --- apart from being a waste of time this would also be impolite.

But the acceptance of the belief, when this is called for, need not divert us from reality. We just don't speak of reality when belief is the order of the day.

Belief (and good manners):-
if a Javanese gentleman assures you that a particular blade is made from meteoritic material, accept his assertion, declare that it feels prickly and compliment him on his prize possession.

Reality:-
which meteors were used to produce the blades that contain meteoritic material?
where is the record in the old literature of meteor falls?
where, prior to the late 18th century, is there mention or inference in the literature that keris contained meteoritic material?

No answers?

Totally unimportant. Belief and reality never were very comfortable bed-fellows.

Sajen · 24th September 2016, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Alan,
You are killing the dreams of many collectors!

And the business of many ebay sellers!

Sajen · 24th September 2016, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I think Mpu Djeno made a keris containing meteoritic material...

This is consistent with my informations.

24th September 2016, 02:47 AM	#2
NotoriousCal Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 24	Thanks Thank you both for your reply. I would think that a keris would be more expensive having meteorite. I definitely would want one if I could find one.

28th September 2016, 08:48 AM	#7
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, Sorry if this subject was raised earlier in the forum but some members of the Solo kris circles claim that meteorite iron was used for making pamor blades besides the Prambanan meteore. From memory they identify it from the prickly touch, look, and "resonance" for those able to feel it. These 2 blades are examples of what they identify as made from meteoric pamor, what do you think? Regards Attached Images

28th September 2016, 09:59 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes, it is a widely held belief that pamor made from meteorite does have a very slightly prickly feel to it. The two blades that I have been involved in making that definitely contain meteorite do have a very faint prickly feel. Another blade that I have which is attributable to Jayasukadgo also has a very faint prickly feel. Jayasukadgo was a Surakarta empu during the era when Surakarta empus did sometimes use meteoritic material. However --- over the years I have handled other blades that have very little possibility of containing meteorite, and these have also had a very slight prickly feel. "Resonance" ? Yeah, right. For those who believe. The "look" of the blade? Here is a pic of a blade that very definitely has pamor made from meteorite. Does it have some sort of distinctive look that jumps out at you and screams "METEOR!!!" ? Jean, I've been exposed to these beliefs for a very long time. If somebody believes that he can identify meteor by look, touch, feel, or because it whispers to him when he's asleep, who am I to argue with him? In my experience the claim that a blade contains meteoritic material begins with the way it looks:- if it has pamor material that is a little bit out of the ordinary and cannot be easily identified, then this is a sign that it is probably meteor --- for those who believe. Then the "testing" begins, the feeling of the blade with eyes turned skywards or slightly closed, the deep concentration, the announcement that it feels slightly prickly. Somebody else who is present will feel the blade and confirm the prickly feel --- would they dare not to? This is Jawa don't forget. Avoid conflict and disagreement at all times. Then the edge of the blade will be flicked with a fingernail and it doesn't matter what sound it makes, this will be a sure sign that it is meteoritic pamor. It must be very clearly understood that virtually all keris knowledge as it is today is in fact a belief system, or a network of belief systems. This knowledge is based in societal and cultural beliefs and mores and has very little to do with reality. If we are to understand the keris, we must understand these beliefs and when the occasion calls for it we must not challenge these beliefs --- apart from being a waste of time this would also be impolite. But the acceptance of the belief, when this is called for, need not divert us from reality. We just don't speak of reality when belief is the order of the day. Belief (and good manners):- if a Javanese gentleman assures you that a particular blade is made from meteoritic material, accept his assertion, declare that it feels prickly and compliment him on his prize possession. Reality:- which meteors were used to produce the blades that contain meteoritic material? where is the record in the old literature of meteor falls? where, prior to the late 18th century, is there mention or inference in the literature that keris contained meteoritic material? No answers? Totally unimportant. Belief and reality never were very comfortable bed-fellows. Attached Images

24th September 2016, 02:10 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	The definitive reference for an answer to this question is a paper by Bennet Bronson that was published in "Historical Metallurgy", Vol. 21, No.1, 1987. The paper is "Terrestrial and Meteoritic Nickel in the Indonesian Kris". Very briefly, if the keris is not a very high class Central Javanese keris made between about 1800 and 1930 it is extremely unlikely to contain meteoritic material. I think Mpu Djeno made a keris containing meteoritic material, Pande Keris Yantono and I made two during the 1990's, I think a couple more have been made since 2000. Keris containing meteorite are very scarce and extremely expensive.

24th September 2016, 09:25 AM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, You are killing the dreams of many collectors!

24th September 2016, 01:16 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Jean, love is only real when it recognises deficiencies and accepts them.

24th September 2016, 08:32 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	In a physical sense, of course it is not, David, but in the sense of an additional attribute, most especially for Jean's dreamers, and for salesmen, it may be a severe deficiency.