Blunderbuss with Cork Mail markings

ChrisPer · 7th September 2016, 05:05 AM

Can I suggest that obvious decorator or tourist guns do not enhance this excellent forum? Perhaps a thread to help newcomers understand and distinguish decorators, or comparing real antecedents to decorator designs would be worthwhile.

Kmaddock · 7th September 2016, 08:19 AM

I agree in principle
I do think though the blunderbuss is not a tourist item and discussing does enhance the forum by showing what good copies are being made
Without this forum I would have bid north of 700 euro for this gun
A rogues gallery of fakes is a good idea
Regards
Ken

ChrisPer · 8th September 2016, 10:08 AM

Yes the blunderbuss is real, just not a museum-quality example. Its the others that bother me. In another forum I saw someone post a pic of a 'matchlock pistol' to support the idea that they were used in Europe, but it clearly was a cast-zinc decorator and the very weird stock designed I think so an ordinary piece of 75x42 timber could be used.

Kmaddock · 8th September 2016, 12:23 PM

Hi Chris
The blunderbuss is not real, it not a tourist item though, it is something made to deceive ( my opinion)
But I reckon without the mail stamps and a few other things I am not going to get into on an open forum, this blunderbuss could be made to completely fly under the radar and be purchased for not inconsiderable money as the genuine article.
I have purchased fake items and if is a learning experience
My lesson was not that expensive but we'll learned all the same.
Maybe a thread entitled " my mistake purchases" would be handy as a reference of what is out there.
I am not a regular enough contributer to this forum to start such a thread though as it is not really what the forum is for.
Regards
Ken

Pukka Bundook · 8th September 2016, 03:14 PM

Ken
I appreciate your thoughts on this, and there are all sorts of ways to lose hard earned cash!

Another area to be taken that is not new but shows up quite often, is the case of flint pocket pistols by Nock or Twigg;
These show up not infrequently at auction, nice little pistols, but with Birmingham proofs of the post 1813 type!
Both Twigg and old Henry Nock were dead by then, and should warn us that something is amiss. (!)
All this means is that an arm does not have to be new to deceive us. It has been going on for a Long time and if something is genuinely Old, it does not mean it is genuine as represented.
Both Birmingham and some Belgian shops have been using famous names forever it seems.
The Cork 'buss throws us a bit, as Irish arms need have no proofs at this date. Somewhere I have seen that stamp before & can't think where....but Think it was on another shady piece!

All best,
Richard.

Jim McDougall · 13th September 2016, 11:55 PM

While this fascinating topic has pretty much run its course with the determination that the Cork example may not be authentic, it does bring up interesting details about these rather esoteric weapons.

The use of Royal Mail coaches with blunderbuss armed guards was proposed about 1784 by John Palmer. Only the guards were permitted to be armed, and often had a brace of pistols as well as these type blunderbusses. According to some sources, a highwayman attempted robbery of one of these coaches and was killed, with no further instances of same recorded, as far as is known.
These blunderbuss guns had become popular among civilians during the English Civil War (1642-48) and though sometimes used by troops, they typically were outside the regular military protocols so usually not stamped with acceptance or other government markings.

By the latter 18th century, these guns and pistols for the prestigious Royal Mail coaches were typically well made and by makers intent on good showing with their products. One of the most commonly known makers were the Mortimers.
On these examples, the typical phrase was
FOR HIS MAJESTIES MAIL COACHES
This was around the end of the barrel and there was usually an asterisk amidst the wording.
These words on both blunderbuss and pistols.

The 'coach' guns continued in use well into 19th c about c 1840s
Found no data on names such as 'Cork' or 'York' mail. Mail routes were usually numbered with three numbers (i.e. 209, one of the only routes 'named' as 'Quicksilver') so does not seem such mkgs on barrel
would be usual.

On some other makers, particularly Ketland & Co. the words:
HAPPY IS HE THAT ESCAPETH ME
The same on one by Joseph Sanders c. 1778-1788
Top of barrel: SANDERSBOROUGH LONDON

Some apparently had R.P. (=Royal Post) near trigger guard

I could not find evidence of any FLY OR DIE phrase nor any reference to it.

Other blunderbuss myths:
* the pilgrims did not have blunderbusses, they were far from well known and they had mostly matchlocks and wheellocks,
* the notion of loading detritus such as nails, glass etc. into the barrel
was not good.....these could jam and explode the gun.

The flared barrel on blunderbusses was not to spread shot etc. but for quick and easier loading , i.e. in bounding coach .

It would be great to see some examples of these 'coach guns'

It seems like there was an article on these in "Man at Arms" magazine, but cannot recall issue.

fernando · 14th September 2016, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... It would be great to see some examples of these 'coach guns'...

Interesting question, Jim, starting by sorting it by either typology or coloquial terms ... or even by period.

What is precisely a coach gun ?
Does a coach gun have to be the blunderbuss type ?
Do navy blunderbusses have something to distinguish them from those used in coaches ... or those used afoot ... let alone the bronze barrel version ?

How would you classsify the following examples ?

.

7th September 2016, 05:05 AM	#1
ChrisPer Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 35	Can I suggest that obvious decorator or tourist guns do not enhance this excellent forum? Perhaps a thread to help newcomers understand and distinguish decorators, or comparing real antecedents to decorator designs would be worthwhile.

7th September 2016, 08:19 AM	#2
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	I agree in principle I do think though the blunderbuss is not a tourist item and discussing does enhance the forum by showing what good copies are being made Without this forum I would have bid north of 700 euro for this gun A rogues gallery of fakes is a good idea Regards Ken

8th September 2016, 10:08 AM	#3
ChrisPer Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 35	Yes the blunderbuss is real, just not a museum-quality example. Its the others that bother me. In another forum I saw someone post a pic of a 'matchlock pistol' to support the idea that they were used in Europe, but it clearly was a cast-zinc decorator and the very weird stock designed I think so an ordinary piece of 75x42 timber could be used.

8th September 2016, 12:23 PM	#4
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi Chris The blunderbuss is not real, it not a tourist item though, it is something made to deceive ( my opinion) But I reckon without the mail stamps and a few other things I am not going to get into on an open forum, this blunderbuss could be made to completely fly under the radar and be purchased for not inconsiderable money as the genuine article. I have purchased fake items and if is a learning experience My lesson was not that expensive but we'll learned all the same. Maybe a thread entitled " my mistake purchases" would be handy as a reference of what is out there. I am not a regular enough contributer to this forum to start such a thread though as it is not really what the forum is for. Regards Ken

8th September 2016, 03:14 PM	#5
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Ken I appreciate your thoughts on this, and there are all sorts of ways to lose hard earned cash! Another area to be taken that is not new but shows up quite often, is the case of flint pocket pistols by Nock or Twigg; These show up not infrequently at auction, nice little pistols, but with Birmingham proofs of the post 1813 type! Both Twigg and old Henry Nock were dead by then, and should warn us that something is amiss. (!) All this means is that an arm does not have to be new to deceive us. It has been going on for a Long time and if something is genuinely Old, it does not mean it is genuine as represented. Both Birmingham and some Belgian shops have been using famous names forever it seems. The Cork 'buss throws us a bit, as Irish arms need have no proofs at this date. Somewhere I have seen that stamp before & can't think where....but Think it was on another shady piece! All best, Richard.

13th September 2016, 11:55 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	While this fascinating topic has pretty much run its course with the determination that the Cork example may not be authentic, it does bring up interesting details about these rather esoteric weapons. The use of Royal Mail coaches with blunderbuss armed guards was proposed about 1784 by John Palmer. Only the guards were permitted to be armed, and often had a brace of pistols as well as these type blunderbusses. According to some sources, a highwayman attempted robbery of one of these coaches and was killed, with no further instances of same recorded, as far as is known. These blunderbuss guns had become popular among civilians during the English Civil War (1642-48) and though sometimes used by troops, they typically were outside the regular military protocols so usually not stamped with acceptance or other government markings. By the latter 18th century, these guns and pistols for the prestigious Royal Mail coaches were typically well made and by makers intent on good showing with their products. One of the most commonly known makers were the Mortimers. On these examples, the typical phrase was FOR HIS MAJESTIES MAIL COACHES This was around the end of the barrel and there was usually an asterisk amidst the wording. These words on both blunderbuss and pistols. The 'coach' guns continued in use well into 19th c about c 1840s Found no data on names such as 'Cork' or 'York' mail. Mail routes were usually numbered with three numbers (i.e. 209, one of the only routes 'named' as 'Quicksilver') so does not seem such mkgs on barrel would be usual. On some other makers, particularly Ketland & Co. the words: HAPPY IS HE THAT ESCAPETH ME The same on one by Joseph Sanders c. 1778-1788 Top of barrel: SANDERSBOROUGH LONDON Some apparently had R.P. (=Royal Post) near trigger guard I could not find evidence of any FLY OR DIE phrase nor any reference to it. Other blunderbuss myths: * the pilgrims did not have blunderbusses, they were far from well known and they had mostly matchlocks and wheellocks, * the notion of loading detritus such as nails, glass etc. into the barrel was not good.....these could jam and explode the gun. The flared barrel on blunderbusses was not to spread shot etc. but for quick and easier loading , i.e. in bounding coach . It would be great to see some examples of these 'coach guns' It seems like there was an article on these in "Man at Arms" magazine, but cannot recall issue.