questions about Taiwanese matchlocks

KuKulzA28 · 4th September 2016, 10:57 PM

Thanks for the info guys, I'm intently awaiting pictures and Specs!

I will go the flintlock route because local laws forbid hunting with matchlock and I want to hunt with this Taiwanese style muzzleloader, but I will make it to match the simplicity of the Formosan style.
For "realism", would I want to be using flint held there with gum or pine pitch or birch tar, further tightened with rattan cord or rawhide?
If a Formosan in 1800s were to make a flintlock, would that be how they'd make it? A modification of the existing matchlock they're familiar with?

Ramrod... Now I won't pretend Seediq Bale is a historical source, but in the movie they show Seediq and Bunun braves using and holding ramrods. Was this a mistake or did some Formosans use ramrods? It seems if they did, they carried them instead of carving a groove under the barrel trough... ? I wonder if ramrods were actually nonexistent or just not considered necessary...

Stock, I can make it one piece or two piece and do a good job I think, amateur woodworker here, but I think carving wooden sheaths, knife handles, longbows, and dugout canoe has given me some skills....
If it's one piece and the grain doesn't bend into the grip (quite an extreme angle), I wonder if that's structurally acceptable because the arms bend to accomodate the recoil rather than the harder resistance from a shoulder stock?

Today yuanzhumin in Taiwan CAN hunt legally, they register and can use guns, almost always some primitive homemade firearm, many are making them with shoulder stocks now. However many are unregistered, hunters unlicensed, and hunting unregulated - I guess their ecological and social impact is just not damaging enough to really warrant heavy regulation. Taiwan, as y'all know went through pretty intense disarmament with that last two regimes and hunting is generally illegal for most people...

I live in Mass, I will definitely check out the Peabody museum gun.

Philip · 5th September 2016, 05:48 AM

Seems to me that you are working within three parameters:
1. Keeping it as authentic as possible based on available ethnographic info
2. Keeping it doable -- within the bounds of resources and manufacturing ability
3. (since you intend this to be a functional item used for hunting) Conformity to local regulations on hunting.

Looks to me that between you and Ricky, #2 is not a problem. #3 is already spelled out, you need to go flintlock (or percussion) in Massachusetts.

Satisfying #1 may take some doing, considering that we really don't have a great deal of information on Taiwan aborigine firearms, with just a few examples available for study in museums. Good thing you live in MA -- you can (and should) make arrangements to study their gun in person. The one my friend has here is almost identical, having pics of it would be nice but you would probably get more out of hands-on study of the one in the Peabody-Essex Museum.

Of course as we have discussed, this is a matchlock, and one of the most primitive variety. At this point, may I suggest that you contact curators and academics in Taiwan to see what other guns are in collections there, and have been studied by scholars. There must be something about them in ethnographic journals, Taiwan is a modern country with well developed academic institutions (the National Palace Museum Monthly of Chinese Art has published some good articles on imperial court arms and military equipment which I have found most useful, but this does not have a tribal-cultures orientation). The point I'm trying to pursue is that since the Portuguese and Dutch arrived on Formosa in the 17th cent., there must have been at least a trickle of Western material culture influencing the native mountain people, and thus some attempt to duplicate a flintlock mechanism. There is probably an example or two in an ethnographic collection, at a museum or university, on Taiwan. If such an anomaly can be studied and copied, you have it made. You can develop the design into something that will actually work (hopefully be more advanced than the rather crude SE Asian tribal flintlocks we've been talking about), and which reflects an actual development in the native cultures.

rickystl · 5th September 2016, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Seems to me that you are working within three parameters:
1. Keeping it as authentic as possible based on available ethnographic info
2. Keeping it doable -- within the bounds of resources and manufacturing ability
3. (since you intend this to be a functional item used for hunting) Conformity to local regulations on hunting.

Looks to me that between you and Ricky, #2 is not a problem. #3 is already spelled out, you need to go flintlock (or percussion) in Massachusetts.

Satisfying #1 may take some doing, considering that we really don't have a great deal of information on Taiwan aborigine firearms, with just a few examples available for study in museums. Good thing you live in MA -- you can (and should) make arrangements to study their gun in person. The one my friend has here is almost identical, having pics of it would be nice but you would probably get more out of hands-on study of the one in the Peabody-Essex Museum.

Of course as we have discussed, this is a matchlock, and one of the most primitive variety. At this point, may I suggest that you contact curators and academics in Taiwan to see what other guns are in collections there, and have been studied by scholars. There must be something about them in ethnographic journals, Taiwan is a modern country with well developed academic institutions (the National Palace Museum Monthly of Chinese Art has published some good articles on imperial court arms and military equipment which I have found most useful, but this does not have a tribal-cultures orientation). The point I'm trying to pursue is that since the Portuguese and Dutch arrived on Formosa in the 17th cent., there must have been at least a trickle of Western material culture influencing the native mountain people, and thus some attempt to duplicate a flintlock mechanism. There is probably an example or two in an ethnographic collection, at a museum or university, on Taiwan. If such an anomaly can be studied and copied, you have it made. You can develop the design into something that will actually work (hopefully be more advanced than the rather crude SE Asian tribal flintlocks we've been talking about), and which reflects an actual development in the native cultures.

As Philip mentions, photos, dimensions, and measurements are very useful. But nothing tops being able to hold/view an actual specimen. I hope you do get to have a private view. Be sure to take clear photos and measurements. Don't forget to note if the barrel is round and tapered. If so, besides the barrel length, measure the approximate diameter at the breech, middle, and muzzle end. And take a bore gauge to measure the approximate caliber.
And a close-up photo of the lock/trigger and approximate length and height.

Philip: Thanks again for the education/history. Most interesting.

Rick

rickystl · 5th September 2016, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

Thanks for the info guys, I'm intently awaiting pictures and Specs!

I will go the flintlock route because local laws forbid hunting with matchlock and I want to hunt with this Taiwanese style muzzleloader, but I will make it to match the simplicity of the Formosan style.
For "realism", would I want to be using flint held there with gum or pine pitch or birch tar, further tightened with rattan cord or rawhide?
If a Formosan in 1800s were to make a flintlock, would that be how they'd make it? A modification of the existing matchlock they're familiar with?

Ramrod... Now I won't pretend Seediq Bale is a historical source, but in the movie they show Seediq and Bunun braves using and holding ramrods. Was this a mistake or did some Formosans use ramrods? It seems if they did, they carried them instead of carving a groove under the barrel trough... ? I wonder if ramrods were actually nonexistent or just not considered necessary...

Stock, I can make it one piece or two piece and do a good job I think, amateur woodworker here, but I think carving wooden sheaths, knife handles, longbows, and dugout canoe has given me some skills....
If it's one piece and the grain doesn't bend into the grip (quite an extreme angle), I wonder if that's structurally acceptable because the arms bend to accomodate the recoil rather than the harder resistance from a shoulder stock?

Today yuanzhumin in Taiwan CAN hunt legally, they register and can use guns, almost always some primitive homemade firearm, many are making them with shoulder stocks now. However many are unregistered, hunters unlicensed, and hunting unregulated - I guess their ecological and social impact is just not damaging enough to really warrant heavy regulation. Taiwan, as y'all know went through pretty intense disarmament with that last two regimes and hunting is generally illegal for most people...

I live in Mass, I will definitely check out the Peabody museum gun.

OK. You live in MA. And you want to hunt using the gun. Yes, I think there are maybe two or three States that won't let you use a matchlock. I see the dilema now. Also, some States have a minimum caliber (for muzzle loaders) for hunting larger game such as whitetails, etc. (I think .40 or larger) (?) You might want to check that out if you haven't already.
FLINTLOCK LOCK: As we've noted, the Vietnamese lock has no top screw or top jaw. And the lock seems to be held to the stock with a horse show type nail on the rear, and the rear barrel band on the front. In other words, no screws. This was likely due to there not being any means to drill holes or make threads. And I would guess the situation in Tribal Formosa would be similar. Unless you can locate an original flintlock specimen in Taiwan (would be great!) you might consider using a similar architecture of flintlock as the Vietnamese example, with a lockplate closer to the matchlock plate on the Formosa gun ? Just a thought.
RAMRODS: Philip could easily be right that they were loaded with a very undersized ball and tapped on the butt a couple times. Maybe a piece of tow was rammed down afterward to help keep the ball from rolling forward? (I unloaded an Albanian long gun that was loaded just this way). I would think at some point a rod would be needed for cleaning the bore. Unless, the bores were not properly cleaned after firing (?) But if they did use rods, it is obvious they were carried seperately. And of course you would want to have a rod for loading and cleaning.
STOCK: From a strength stanpoint, I would think the one piece would be best. A good straight-grained hardwood. Would be interesting to know the most common hardwood utilized in Taiwan/Formosa. With your woodworking skills, it shouldn't be too dificult to duplicate the stock. Being a half-stock, with no ramrod hole to drill or groove in the bottom will simplifiy things.

This sounds like it will make any interesting project.

Rick

Philip · 5th September 2016, 05:50 PM

A couple of thoughts, pertaining to use of the replica gun today for hunting:
SIGHTS: I don't recall seeing any on the Peabody-Essex Museum example, and none of the Indochina highland tribal examples have sights either. The latter judging from all the Vietnam War souvenirs I've handled at gun shows. I suppose that tribesmen used to taking game at short distances with bows, or crossbows, would find sights all that necessary on a gun barrel used under the same conditions. Especially considering that the barrel was smoothbore and we are looking at the likelihood of undersized slugs loaded without a ramrod.

You may feel more comfortable aiming at your game animals with a sighted barrel -- how about an unobtrusive shotgun-type bead sight on your barrel? In fact you may want to check your state hunting regulations to see if there are any minimum requirements. In a SE Asian and Far Eastern context, there is no "across the board" rule when it comes to the dominant, majority-population cultures in the region. Malay muskets tend to have no sights at all. Lowland Vietnamese matchlocks have a blade or bead front and no rear. Chinese and Japanese guns have both front and rear.

MINIMUM CALIBER: The regs probably specify that, for larger game like deer and boar. Most of these aboriginal muskets have very small bores, they are reminiscent of early American "squirrel rifles" or some of the sporting wheellock guns of central Europe. So if you want to be an ethnographic purist, you'll be using the gun for small game (hey, rabbit and squirrel is delicious!), or you may want to tweak things and go bigger if you'd like to go after deer.

RAMROD: For sheer convenience and ballistic performance, I can't imagine doing without one and it's a pain to carry one separately in the field. How about making your stock to hold a rod under the barrel, you can always display the gun without it at home and the small hole at the front end won't be noticeable. In the other thread on Taiwanese matchlocks I did a post on ramrods and there may be ideas you can use. If the rod fits snugly enough and the length of the forestock gives it enough support, you shouldn't need ramrod pipes on the bottom of the barrel.

KuKulzA28 · 15th September 2016, 05:44 PM

Thanks for the additional tips guys...

Talked with MassWildlife and read up on MA hunting laws... This firearm would fall into a weird category of being a muzzleloader pistol and because it doesn't have a shoulder stock, it is illegal to hunt with in MA.

But it is not illegal in neighboring states... Which now also opens up the possibility of hunting with a matchlock (probably more difficult due to match)... So, no longer restricted to flintlock though I'm not against it.

Scheduling a time with Peabody Essex Museum, excited to see this musket...

Hmmm…
I think I will make this .45 to meet requirements in most states, and I do think use a ramrod, just done in a way not to deviate too much from the aesthetic of the originals...

I am tempted to put sights on it, I don't have the lifestyle to allow me to get intimately attuned with and accurate with the firearm without sights at longer range... Then again, I can hit a deer with a longbow at normal hunting range so maybe it'll just take a little practice.

varta · 23rd September 2016, 07:56 PM

From the Qing Dynasty, the Han began to trade guns with the aborigines. Now, although the bolt-action rifles have replaced matchlocks from the seventeenth century, the aborigines continued to use them until the early twentieth century.

KuKulzA28 · 2nd October 2016, 01:06 AM

Hey y'all, so I contacted the Peabody-Essex Museum... looks like they're in a period of expansion and have cut down drastically on collection visits.

However, Gordon at the PEM has graciously taken some pics for me. I will of course be looking to schedule a visit regardless.

According to him:

"The matchlock rifle is described as follows in its original 1911 catalogue entry: "very long barrel, no trigger guard or sights, hammer lashed on. Short stock, varnished with black decorations, curves down like big pistol grip." Its dimensions are recorded as: length, barrel: 126.5 cm; stock: 26 cm; muzzle to butt: 149.5 cm. The work in question was donated in 1911 by a Rimpei Otsu or Taihoku, Formosa. A quick internet search suggests that Otsu served as the Superintendent of the Bureau of Aboriginal Affairs in the Government of Formosa during Japanese colonial rule. "

rickystl · 2nd October 2016, 04:57 PM

Hey!! Thanks for the pics. The gun is really different than I expected.
STOCK: Appears from the photos it's one-piece. But the severity of the bend and the length of the pistol grip are more than I expected. Wonder how they did this ?
BARREL: Appears from the photos that it is octagon at the breech and round - but not tapered - for the rest of the length.

I don't really see a pan on the barrel. And can't really figure out how the trigger/serpentine action works.

Please do keep us updated after your eventual visit. Building a copy could turn out most interesting. Thanks for the pics.

Rick

5th September 2016, 05:50 PM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	concessions to modernity A couple of thoughts, pertaining to use of the replica gun today for hunting: SIGHTS: I don't recall seeing any on the Peabody-Essex Museum example, and none of the Indochina highland tribal examples have sights either. The latter judging from all the Vietnam War souvenirs I've handled at gun shows. I suppose that tribesmen used to taking game at short distances with bows, or crossbows, would find sights all that necessary on a gun barrel used under the same conditions. Especially considering that the barrel was smoothbore and we are looking at the likelihood of undersized slugs loaded without a ramrod. You may feel more comfortable aiming at your game animals with a sighted barrel -- how about an unobtrusive shotgun-type bead sight on your barrel? In fact you may want to check your state hunting regulations to see if there are any minimum requirements. In a SE Asian and Far Eastern context, there is no "across the board" rule when it comes to the dominant, majority-population cultures in the region. Malay muskets tend to have no sights at all. Lowland Vietnamese matchlocks have a blade or bead front and no rear. Chinese and Japanese guns have both front and rear. MINIMUM CALIBER: The regs probably specify that, for larger game like deer and boar. Most of these aboriginal muskets have very small bores, they are reminiscent of early American "squirrel rifles" or some of the sporting wheellock guns of central Europe. So if you want to be an ethnographic purist, you'll be using the gun for small game (hey, rabbit and squirrel is delicious!), or you may want to tweak things and go bigger if you'd like to go after deer. RAMROD: For sheer convenience and ballistic performance, I can't imagine doing without one and it's a pain to carry one separately in the field. How about making your stock to hold a rod under the barrel, you can always display the gun without it at home and the small hole at the front end won't be noticeable. In the other thread on Taiwanese matchlocks I did a post on ramrods and there may be ideas you can use. If the rod fits snugly enough and the length of the forestock gives it enough support, you shouldn't need ramrod pipes on the bottom of the barrel.

15th September 2016, 05:44 PM	#6
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Thanks for the additional tips guys... Talked with MassWildlife and read up on MA hunting laws... This firearm would fall into a weird category of being a muzzleloader pistol and because it doesn't have a shoulder stock, it is illegal to hunt with in MA. But it is not illegal in neighboring states... Which now also opens up the possibility of hunting with a matchlock (probably more difficult due to match)... So, no longer restricted to flintlock though I'm not against it. Scheduling a time with Peabody Essex Museum, excited to see this musket... Hmmm… I think I will make this .45 to meet requirements in most states, and I do think use a ramrod, just done in a way not to deviate too much from the aesthetic of the originals... I am tempted to put sights on it, I don't have the lifestyle to allow me to get intimately attuned with and accurate with the firearm without sights at longer range... Then again, I can hit a deer with a longbow at normal hunting range so maybe it'll just take a little practice. Last edited by KuKulzA28; 15th September 2016 at 05:54 PM.

23rd September 2016, 07:56 PM	#7
varta Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Berlin-Paris Posts: 37	From the Qing Dynasty, the Han began to trade guns with the aborigines. Now, although the bolt-action rifles have replaced matchlocks from the seventeenth century, the aborigines continued to use them until the early twentieth century. Last edited by varta; 24th September 2016 at 03:35 PM.

2nd October 2016, 01:06 AM	#8
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Hey y'all, so I contacted the Peabody-Essex Museum... looks like they're in a period of expansion and have cut down drastically on collection visits. However, Gordon at the PEM has graciously taken some pics for me. I will of course be looking to schedule a visit regardless. According to him: "The matchlock rifle is described as follows in its original 1911 catalogue entry: "very long barrel, no trigger guard or sights, hammer lashed on. Short stock, varnished with black decorations, curves down like big pistol grip." Its dimensions are recorded as: length, barrel: 126.5 cm; stock: 26 cm; muzzle to butt: 149.5 cm. The work in question was donated in 1911 by a Rimpei Otsu or Taihoku, Formosa. A quick internet search suggests that Otsu served as the Superintendent of the Bureau of Aboriginal Affairs in the Government of Formosa during Japanese colonial rule. " Attached Images

4th September 2016, 10:57 PM	#1
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Thanks for the info guys, I'm intently awaiting pictures and Specs! I will go the flintlock route because local laws forbid hunting with matchlock and I want to hunt with this Taiwanese style muzzleloader, but I will make it to match the simplicity of the Formosan style. For "realism", would I want to be using flint held there with gum or pine pitch or birch tar, further tightened with rattan cord or rawhide? If a Formosan in 1800s were to make a flintlock, would that be how they'd make it? A modification of the existing matchlock they're familiar with? Ramrod... Now I won't pretend Seediq Bale is a historical source, but in the movie they show Seediq and Bunun braves using and holding ramrods. Was this a mistake or did some Formosans use ramrods? It seems if they did, they carried them instead of carving a groove under the barrel trough... ? I wonder if ramrods were actually nonexistent or just not considered necessary... Stock, I can make it one piece or two piece and do a good job I think, amateur woodworker here, but I think carving wooden sheaths, knife handles, longbows, and dugout canoe has given me some skills.... If it's one piece and the grain doesn't bend into the grip (quite an extreme angle), I wonder if that's structurally acceptable because the arms bend to accomodate the recoil rather than the harder resistance from a shoulder stock? Today yuanzhumin in Taiwan CAN hunt legally, they register and can use guns, almost always some primitive homemade firearm, many are making them with shoulder stocks now. However many are unregistered, hunters unlicensed, and hunting unregulated - I guess their ecological and social impact is just not damaging enough to really warrant heavy regulation. Taiwan, as y'all know went through pretty intense disarmament with that last two regimes and hunting is generally illegal for most people... I live in Mass, I will definitely check out the Peabody museum gun.

5th September 2016, 05:48 AM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	managing the project-- parameters and goals Seems to me that you are working within three parameters: 1. Keeping it as authentic as possible based on available ethnographic info 2. Keeping it doable -- within the bounds of resources and manufacturing ability 3. (since you intend this to be a functional item used for hunting) Conformity to local regulations on hunting. Looks to me that between you and Ricky, #2 is not a problem. #3 is already spelled out, you need to go flintlock (or percussion) in Massachusetts. Satisfying #1 may take some doing, considering that we really don't have a great deal of information on Taiwan aborigine firearms, with just a few examples available for study in museums. Good thing you live in MA -- you can (and should) make arrangements to study their gun in person. The one my friend has here is almost identical, having pics of it would be nice but you would probably get more out of hands-on study of the one in the Peabody-Essex Museum. Of course as we have discussed, this is a matchlock, and one of the most primitive variety. At this point, may I suggest that you contact curators and academics in Taiwan to see what other guns are in collections there, and have been studied by scholars. There must be something about them in ethnographic journals, Taiwan is a modern country with well developed academic institutions (the National Palace Museum Monthly of Chinese Art has published some good articles on imperial court arms and military equipment which I have found most useful, but this does not have a tribal-cultures orientation). The point I'm trying to pursue is that since the Portuguese and Dutch arrived on Formosa in the 17th cent., there must have been at least a trickle of Western material culture influencing the native mountain people, and thus some attempt to duplicate a flintlock mechanism. There is probably an example or two in an ethnographic collection, at a museum or university, on Taiwan. If such an anomaly can be studied and copied, you have it made. You can develop the design into something that will actually work (hopefully be more advanced than the rather crude SE Asian tribal flintlocks we've been talking about), and which reflects an actual development in the native cultures.

2nd October 2016, 04:57 PM	#9
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Hey!! Thanks for the pics. The gun is really different than I expected. STOCK: Appears from the photos it's one-piece. But the severity of the bend and the length of the pistol grip are more than I expected. Wonder how they did this ? BARREL: Appears from the photos that it is octagon at the breech and round - but not tapered - for the rest of the length. I don't really see a pan on the barrel. And can't really figure out how the trigger/serpentine action works. Please do keep us updated after your eventual visit. Building a copy could turn out most interesting. Thanks for the pics. Rick