questions about Taiwanese matchlocks

Philip · 2nd September 2016, 12:14 AM

Ricky,
The stock was originally painted or lacquered and there's this lovely patina of age on it. All of which didn't allow me to check if it was two piece. (plus, the lighting in the museum's depot leaves something to be desired!). Getting such a deep curve and slender profile from one piece of wood takes some doing. I wonder if saplings were bent to shape and the trees allowed to grow into the shape, leaving the upper part straight for the fore-end? That would provide maximum strength, and a lot of trees grow rather quickly in the tropics. I have no idea what kind of wood the original is made of. A buddy of mine in CA happens to have one of these guns, let me ask him what his is made of. Stay tuned.

Hey guys -- if you want to go the crude tribal flintlock route, why not pick up one of those Vietnam "Montagnard" guns I was talking about at a gun show, find one with a lock in good shape, and use that? The things are so simple and sturdy I hardly ever see one that's really damaged. The guns themselves have little collector value so taking the lock off isn't the kiss of death. Wait... I remember that they are dismountable without the need to bust anything. Slide the large rearmost barrel band forward, it allows the "tongue" at the front of the lockplate to lift free. Rotate it sideways away from the stock. The rear is a hook engaging an iron staple pounded into the stock. The thing is easier to field-strip than an AK-47!

Be forewarned, though, that these locks are primitive. Forget about what you saw in that movie about the Alamo. There is no screw-tightened jaws for the flint, it's probably anchored with tree resin and rawhide (changing it is a chore, in fact just about all of the originals you see lack a flint). There is no depression to speak of for a priming pan. Just pour a tad of powder on the wide ledge next to the touchhole, close the frizzen, invoke the blessings of St Barbara if you're Catholic, and take on that tiger that's staring you down on the jungle path.

rickystl · 3rd September 2016, 04:19 PM

Hi Philip.

Thanks for your reply. Yes, maybe your friend can advise us on the stock. All the photos I've seen seem to show it being a one-piece stock. I've never held/seen one up close. Even with the prolonged use of steam, I can't imagine being able to make that severe of a bend without weakening or breaking the stock. I think your theory of positioning a young sapling in the desired position, and letting it grow in that direction has merit. Would be interesting to know.
But for a shooting replica, a two-piece stock is one option.

Another option, as Philip mentions, would be to purchase a complete Vietnamese gun and use the lock. There doesn't seem to be any real collector interest/value in these guns. They tend to sell for a low price.

One more option. Unless there is a big difference between the Tiwanese and Vietnamese stock and barrel design, you could purchase the complete Vietnames gun and re-orient the look of the gun to fit the Tiwanese style, and use a new barrel or have a new steel liner installed in the existing barrel. And that might be the least expensive route. Just a thought.

I'm still kicking myself for not getting that lock off Ebay when I saw it 2-3 years ago.

Rick

Philip · 3rd September 2016, 08:13 PM

LOCK:
If you're after ETHNOGRAPHIC ACCURACY in your design, the Viet hill-tribes flintlock will not do. They are distinctly different from the extremely primitive matchlock typical of Taiwan. In fact, those Taiwan matchlock mechanisms are so simple that a replica can be fabricated for very little money, can be made at home by anyone who's handy with tools and has basic workshop equipment including a torch. After all, the originals were made a milieu with the most elementary metalworking skill-set. Good images should be obtained from the Peabody-Essex museum, and you can go from there.

BARREL:
I think the originals were probably imported, most likely from Chinese traders. W. W. Greener, in THE BOOK OF THE GUN, offers eyewitness descriptions of itinerant Chinese smiths making good quality twist forged smoothbore barrels in shops set up at their customers' homes in south China. VOC records show various arms imported into northern Burma from China in the 17th cent., and you've probably seen Moro barongs with Chinese markings on the blades.

You could conceivably use the barrel off a Viet hill-tribe musket, they are quite nicely forged considering the crudity of the rest of the gun. Problem here is that they are shorter and smaller in bore than the existing Taiwan examples. Shooting one may be problematic from a safety standpoint because ethnographic iron objects from SE Asia tend to have corroded a fair amount due to climate and irregular maintenance (sometimes outright neglect after they were collected in the field).

STOCK
From a practical standpoint, 2-piece is the way to go if you don't want to wait for a sapling to grow for you. I don't know how skillful the Taiwan aborigines were at carpentry, whether they borrowed the skill of Chinese joiners who could do these tight and near invisible scarf joints on the curved backs/arms of those Ming style "horseshoe" armchairs.

Lemme call my buddy in San Diego who has a Taiwan gun and ask him if his stock is 1 or 2 piece. Stay tuned, guys.

rickystl · 4th September 2016, 04:22 PM

Well, apparently, there is a sizable difference between the Taiwanese and Vietnamese guns other than the rudimantry first glance. So, you can ignore most of my post mentions above. LOL

So, what we want to do is replicate a Taiwanese matchlock. And I assume with as much accuracy as reasonable (?) Since I don't recall ever seeing a picture of one, I can't really comment on the specifics. But Philip has done an outstanding job. If there is an original available to copy from photos and specs, it is doable. Here's what I visualize so far:

BARREL: Smoothbore barrels in virtually any length, caliber, and dimension can be made. And at a reasonable cost. So I don't see this being much of an issue.
STOCK: I'm thinking the stock could be made as one-piece. There are gunstock blanks 2" thick readilly available (although I don't know what wood was typically used with these Taiwanese matchlocks). But you would need a wood plank that is about 12" WIDE (guessing) by 2" thick, in the desired length. That might be difficult to find (?). Would be worth waiting to see what Philip's friend tells us.
LOCK: The MATCHLOCK lock seems to be the only lock to replicate authenticity. But if you CAN'T use a matchlock lock, not sure what the alternative should be? While the Vietnamese style flintlock would be historically incorrect, any contemorary made flintlock would be even more so, and look very odd on the gun. Possibly a percussion variation similar to another Thread recently posted here on the Forum?

Is there actually a law in Taiwan using a matchlock? Just curious.

Rick

Philip · 4th September 2016, 06:29 PM

1. PICS . I talked to my friend yesterday who has perhaps the best example of these known in private hands in the US, he recalls the stock being one piece but will check and send images of relevant details including the lock. He's a tad absent minded (and dealing with a plumbing leak) so it may be awhile, I'll keep after him. I will have to send you these by private email since he doesn't want them publicized.

2. Barrel: Will also try and get the dimensions.

3. Alternative info sources: It's always good to corroborate data against another known example. Good idea for you to contact the Peabody-Essex Museum in Salem, MA to see if you can get pics and measurements of theirs. The entry in Stone's GLOSSARY only gives an overall length of 4 ft 10.25 in, no barrel length and no caliber. Barrel is "covered with brass". Having bore dimensions of different examples is good to determine historically accurate boundaries for the replica. One thing I have noticed is that a lot of these SE Asian and western Pacific archipelago pieces have relatively small bores. The Vietnamese highland ones, especially so, like around .35 - .40 cal. at most. Compare to Chinese and other north Asian guns which are around .50 cal, bigger for rampart guns.

KuKulzA28 · 4th September 2016, 10:57 PM

Thanks for the info guys, I'm intently awaiting pictures and Specs!

I will go the flintlock route because local laws forbid hunting with matchlock and I want to hunt with this Taiwanese style muzzleloader, but I will make it to match the simplicity of the Formosan style.
For "realism", would I want to be using flint held there with gum or pine pitch or birch tar, further tightened with rattan cord or rawhide?
If a Formosan in 1800s were to make a flintlock, would that be how they'd make it? A modification of the existing matchlock they're familiar with?

Ramrod... Now I won't pretend Seediq Bale is a historical source, but in the movie they show Seediq and Bunun braves using and holding ramrods. Was this a mistake or did some Formosans use ramrods? It seems if they did, they carried them instead of carving a groove under the barrel trough... ? I wonder if ramrods were actually nonexistent or just not considered necessary...

Stock, I can make it one piece or two piece and do a good job I think, amateur woodworker here, but I think carving wooden sheaths, knife handles, longbows, and dugout canoe has given me some skills....
If it's one piece and the grain doesn't bend into the grip (quite an extreme angle), I wonder if that's structurally acceptable because the arms bend to accomodate the recoil rather than the harder resistance from a shoulder stock?

Today yuanzhumin in Taiwan CAN hunt legally, they register and can use guns, almost always some primitive homemade firearm, many are making them with shoulder stocks now. However many are unregistered, hunters unlicensed, and hunting unregulated - I guess their ecological and social impact is just not damaging enough to really warrant heavy regulation. Taiwan, as y'all know went through pretty intense disarmament with that last two regimes and hunting is generally illegal for most people...

I live in Mass, I will definitely check out the Peabody museum gun.

Philip · 5th September 2016, 05:48 AM

Seems to me that you are working within three parameters:
1. Keeping it as authentic as possible based on available ethnographic info
2. Keeping it doable -- within the bounds of resources and manufacturing ability
3. (since you intend this to be a functional item used for hunting) Conformity to local regulations on hunting.

Looks to me that between you and Ricky, #2 is not a problem. #3 is already spelled out, you need to go flintlock (or percussion) in Massachusetts.

Satisfying #1 may take some doing, considering that we really don't have a great deal of information on Taiwan aborigine firearms, with just a few examples available for study in museums. Good thing you live in MA -- you can (and should) make arrangements to study their gun in person. The one my friend has here is almost identical, having pics of it would be nice but you would probably get more out of hands-on study of the one in the Peabody-Essex Museum.

Of course as we have discussed, this is a matchlock, and one of the most primitive variety. At this point, may I suggest that you contact curators and academics in Taiwan to see what other guns are in collections there, and have been studied by scholars. There must be something about them in ethnographic journals, Taiwan is a modern country with well developed academic institutions (the National Palace Museum Monthly of Chinese Art has published some good articles on imperial court arms and military equipment which I have found most useful, but this does not have a tribal-cultures orientation). The point I'm trying to pursue is that since the Portuguese and Dutch arrived on Formosa in the 17th cent., there must have been at least a trickle of Western material culture influencing the native mountain people, and thus some attempt to duplicate a flintlock mechanism. There is probably an example or two in an ethnographic collection, at a museum or university, on Taiwan. If such an anomaly can be studied and copied, you have it made. You can develop the design into something that will actually work (hopefully be more advanced than the rather crude SE Asian tribal flintlocks we've been talking about), and which reflects an actual development in the native cultures.

rickystl · 5th September 2016, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

Thanks for the info guys, I'm intently awaiting pictures and Specs!

I will go the flintlock route because local laws forbid hunting with matchlock and I want to hunt with this Taiwanese style muzzleloader, but I will make it to match the simplicity of the Formosan style.
For "realism", would I want to be using flint held there with gum or pine pitch or birch tar, further tightened with rattan cord or rawhide?
If a Formosan in 1800s were to make a flintlock, would that be how they'd make it? A modification of the existing matchlock they're familiar with?

Ramrod... Now I won't pretend Seediq Bale is a historical source, but in the movie they show Seediq and Bunun braves using and holding ramrods. Was this a mistake or did some Formosans use ramrods? It seems if they did, they carried them instead of carving a groove under the barrel trough... ? I wonder if ramrods were actually nonexistent or just not considered necessary...

Stock, I can make it one piece or two piece and do a good job I think, amateur woodworker here, but I think carving wooden sheaths, knife handles, longbows, and dugout canoe has given me some skills....
If it's one piece and the grain doesn't bend into the grip (quite an extreme angle), I wonder if that's structurally acceptable because the arms bend to accomodate the recoil rather than the harder resistance from a shoulder stock?

Today yuanzhumin in Taiwan CAN hunt legally, they register and can use guns, almost always some primitive homemade firearm, many are making them with shoulder stocks now. However many are unregistered, hunters unlicensed, and hunting unregulated - I guess their ecological and social impact is just not damaging enough to really warrant heavy regulation. Taiwan, as y'all know went through pretty intense disarmament with that last two regimes and hunting is generally illegal for most people...

I live in Mass, I will definitely check out the Peabody museum gun.

OK. You live in MA. And you want to hunt using the gun. Yes, I think there are maybe two or three States that won't let you use a matchlock. I see the dilema now. Also, some States have a minimum caliber (for muzzle loaders) for hunting larger game such as whitetails, etc. (I think .40 or larger) (?) You might want to check that out if you haven't already.
FLINTLOCK LOCK: As we've noted, the Vietnamese lock has no top screw or top jaw. And the lock seems to be held to the stock with a horse show type nail on the rear, and the rear barrel band on the front. In other words, no screws. This was likely due to there not being any means to drill holes or make threads. And I would guess the situation in Tribal Formosa would be similar. Unless you can locate an original flintlock specimen in Taiwan (would be great!) you might consider using a similar architecture of flintlock as the Vietnamese example, with a lockplate closer to the matchlock plate on the Formosa gun ? Just a thought.
RAMRODS: Philip could easily be right that they were loaded with a very undersized ball and tapped on the butt a couple times. Maybe a piece of tow was rammed down afterward to help keep the ball from rolling forward? (I unloaded an Albanian long gun that was loaded just this way). I would think at some point a rod would be needed for cleaning the bore. Unless, the bores were not properly cleaned after firing (?) But if they did use rods, it is obvious they were carried seperately. And of course you would want to have a rod for loading and cleaning.
STOCK: From a strength stanpoint, I would think the one piece would be best. A good straight-grained hardwood. Would be interesting to know the most common hardwood utilized in Taiwan/Formosa. With your woodworking skills, it shouldn't be too dificult to duplicate the stock. Being a half-stock, with no ramrod hole to drill or groove in the bottom will simplifiy things.

This sounds like it will make any interesting project.

Rick

4th September 2016, 06:29 PM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	addressing points you raised 1. PICS . I talked to my friend yesterday who has perhaps the best example of these known in private hands in the US, he recalls the stock being one piece but will check and send images of relevant details including the lock. He's a tad absent minded (and dealing with a plumbing leak) so it may be awhile, I'll keep after him. I will have to send you these by private email since he doesn't want them publicized. 2. Barrel: Will also try and get the dimensions. 3. Alternative info sources: It's always good to corroborate data against another known example. Good idea for you to contact the Peabody-Essex Museum in Salem, MA to see if you can get pics and measurements of theirs. The entry in Stone's GLOSSARY only gives an overall length of 4 ft 10.25 in, no barrel length and no caliber. Barrel is "covered with brass". Having bore dimensions of different examples is good to determine historically accurate boundaries for the replica. One thing I have noticed is that a lot of these SE Asian and western Pacific archipelago pieces have relatively small bores. The Vietnamese highland ones, especially so, like around .35 - .40 cal. at most. Compare to Chinese and other north Asian guns which are around .50 cal, bigger for rampart guns.

5th September 2016, 05:48 AM	#7
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	managing the project-- parameters and goals Seems to me that you are working within three parameters: 1. Keeping it as authentic as possible based on available ethnographic info 2. Keeping it doable -- within the bounds of resources and manufacturing ability 3. (since you intend this to be a functional item used for hunting) Conformity to local regulations on hunting. Looks to me that between you and Ricky, #2 is not a problem. #3 is already spelled out, you need to go flintlock (or percussion) in Massachusetts. Satisfying #1 may take some doing, considering that we really don't have a great deal of information on Taiwan aborigine firearms, with just a few examples available for study in museums. Good thing you live in MA -- you can (and should) make arrangements to study their gun in person. The one my friend has here is almost identical, having pics of it would be nice but you would probably get more out of hands-on study of the one in the Peabody-Essex Museum. Of course as we have discussed, this is a matchlock, and one of the most primitive variety. At this point, may I suggest that you contact curators and academics in Taiwan to see what other guns are in collections there, and have been studied by scholars. There must be something about them in ethnographic journals, Taiwan is a modern country with well developed academic institutions (the National Palace Museum Monthly of Chinese Art has published some good articles on imperial court arms and military equipment which I have found most useful, but this does not have a tribal-cultures orientation). The point I'm trying to pursue is that since the Portuguese and Dutch arrived on Formosa in the 17th cent., there must have been at least a trickle of Western material culture influencing the native mountain people, and thus some attempt to duplicate a flintlock mechanism. There is probably an example or two in an ethnographic collection, at a museum or university, on Taiwan. If such an anomaly can be studied and copied, you have it made. You can develop the design into something that will actually work (hopefully be more advanced than the rather crude SE Asian tribal flintlocks we've been talking about), and which reflects an actual development in the native cultures.

2nd September 2016, 12:14 AM	#1
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	designing your functional replica Ricky, The stock was originally painted or lacquered and there's this lovely patina of age on it. All of which didn't allow me to check if it was two piece. (plus, the lighting in the museum's depot leaves something to be desired!). Getting such a deep curve and slender profile from one piece of wood takes some doing. I wonder if saplings were bent to shape and the trees allowed to grow into the shape, leaving the upper part straight for the fore-end? That would provide maximum strength, and a lot of trees grow rather quickly in the tropics. I have no idea what kind of wood the original is made of. A buddy of mine in CA happens to have one of these guns, let me ask him what his is made of. Stay tuned. Hey guys -- if you want to go the crude tribal flintlock route, why not pick up one of those Vietnam "Montagnard" guns I was talking about at a gun show, find one with a lock in good shape, and use that? The things are so simple and sturdy I hardly ever see one that's really damaged. The guns themselves have little collector value so taking the lock off isn't the kiss of death. Wait... I remember that they are dismountable without the need to bust anything. Slide the large rearmost barrel band forward, it allows the "tongue" at the front of the lockplate to lift free. Rotate it sideways away from the stock. The rear is a hook engaging an iron staple pounded into the stock. The thing is easier to field-strip than an AK-47! Be forewarned, though, that these locks are primitive. Forget about what you saw in that movie about the Alamo. There is no screw-tightened jaws for the flint, it's probably anchored with tree resin and rawhide (changing it is a chore, in fact just about all of the originals you see lack a flint). There is no depression to speak of for a priming pan. Just pour a tad of powder on the wide ledge next to the touchhole, close the frizzen, invoke the blessings of St Barbara if you're Catholic, and take on that tiger that's staring you down on the jungle path.

3rd September 2016, 04:19 PM	#2
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Hi Philip. Thanks for your reply. Yes, maybe your friend can advise us on the stock. All the photos I've seen seem to show it being a one-piece stock. I've never held/seen one up close. Even with the prolonged use of steam, I can't imagine being able to make that severe of a bend without weakening or breaking the stock. I think your theory of positioning a young sapling in the desired position, and letting it grow in that direction has merit. Would be interesting to know. But for a shooting replica, a two-piece stock is one option. Another option, as Philip mentions, would be to purchase a complete Vietnamese gun and use the lock. There doesn't seem to be any real collector interest/value in these guns. They tend to sell for a low price. One more option. Unless there is a big difference between the Tiwanese and Vietnamese stock and barrel design, you could purchase the complete Vietnames gun and re-orient the look of the gun to fit the Tiwanese style, and use a new barrel or have a new steel liner installed in the existing barrel. And that might be the least expensive route. Just a thought. I'm still kicking myself for not getting that lock off Ebay when I saw it 2-3 years ago. Rick

3rd September 2016, 08:13 PM	#3
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	difference in locks LOCK: If you're after ETHNOGRAPHIC ACCURACY in your design, the Viet hill-tribes flintlock will not do. They are distinctly different from the extremely primitive matchlock typical of Taiwan. In fact, those Taiwan matchlock mechanisms are so simple that a replica can be fabricated for very little money, can be made at home by anyone who's handy with tools and has basic workshop equipment including a torch. After all, the originals were made a milieu with the most elementary metalworking skill-set. Good images should be obtained from the Peabody-Essex museum, and you can go from there. BARREL: I think the originals were probably imported, most likely from Chinese traders. W. W. Greener, in THE BOOK OF THE GUN, offers eyewitness descriptions of itinerant Chinese smiths making good quality twist forged smoothbore barrels in shops set up at their customers' homes in south China. VOC records show various arms imported into northern Burma from China in the 17th cent., and you've probably seen Moro barongs with Chinese markings on the blades. You could conceivably use the barrel off a Viet hill-tribe musket, they are quite nicely forged considering the crudity of the rest of the gun. Problem here is that they are shorter and smaller in bore than the existing Taiwan examples. Shooting one may be problematic from a safety standpoint because ethnographic iron objects from SE Asia tend to have corroded a fair amount due to climate and irregular maintenance (sometimes outright neglect after they were collected in the field). STOCK From a practical standpoint, 2-piece is the way to go if you don't want to wait for a sapling to grow for you. I don't know how skillful the Taiwan aborigines were at carpentry, whether they borrowed the skill of Chinese joiners who could do these tight and near invisible scarf joints on the curved backs/arms of those Ming style "horseshoe" armchairs. Lemme call my buddy in San Diego who has a Taiwan gun and ask him if his stock is 1 or 2 piece. Stay tuned, guys.

4th September 2016, 04:22 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Well, apparently, there is a sizable difference between the Taiwanese and Vietnamese guns other than the rudimantry first glance. So, you can ignore most of my post mentions above. LOL So, what we want to do is replicate a Taiwanese matchlock. And I assume with as much accuracy as reasonable (?) Since I don't recall ever seeing a picture of one, I can't really comment on the specifics. But Philip has done an outstanding job. If there is an original available to copy from photos and specs, it is doable. Here's what I visualize so far: BARREL: Smoothbore barrels in virtually any length, caliber, and dimension can be made. And at a reasonable cost. So I don't see this being much of an issue. STOCK: I'm thinking the stock could be made as one-piece. There are gunstock blanks 2" thick readilly available (although I don't know what wood was typically used with these Taiwanese matchlocks). But you would need a wood plank that is about 12" WIDE (guessing) by 2" thick, in the desired length. That might be difficult to find (?). Would be worth waiting to see what Philip's friend tells us. LOCK: The MATCHLOCK lock seems to be the only lock to replicate authenticity. But if you CAN'T use a matchlock lock, not sure what the alternative should be? While the Vietnamese style flintlock would be historically incorrect, any contemorary made flintlock would be even more so, and look very odd on the gun. Possibly a percussion variation similar to another Thread recently posted here on the Forum? Is there actually a law in Taiwan using a matchlock? Just curious. Rick

4th September 2016, 10:57 PM	#6
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Thanks for the info guys, I'm intently awaiting pictures and Specs! I will go the flintlock route because local laws forbid hunting with matchlock and I want to hunt with this Taiwanese style muzzleloader, but I will make it to match the simplicity of the Formosan style. For "realism", would I want to be using flint held there with gum or pine pitch or birch tar, further tightened with rattan cord or rawhide? If a Formosan in 1800s were to make a flintlock, would that be how they'd make it? A modification of the existing matchlock they're familiar with? Ramrod... Now I won't pretend Seediq Bale is a historical source, but in the movie they show Seediq and Bunun braves using and holding ramrods. Was this a mistake or did some Formosans use ramrods? It seems if they did, they carried them instead of carving a groove under the barrel trough... ? I wonder if ramrods were actually nonexistent or just not considered necessary... Stock, I can make it one piece or two piece and do a good job I think, amateur woodworker here, but I think carving wooden sheaths, knife handles, longbows, and dugout canoe has given me some skills.... If it's one piece and the grain doesn't bend into the grip (quite an extreme angle), I wonder if that's structurally acceptable because the arms bend to accomodate the recoil rather than the harder resistance from a shoulder stock? Today yuanzhumin in Taiwan CAN hunt legally, they register and can use guns, almost always some primitive homemade firearm, many are making them with shoulder stocks now. However many are unregistered, hunters unlicensed, and hunting unregulated - I guess their ecological and social impact is just not damaging enough to really warrant heavy regulation. Taiwan, as y'all know went through pretty intense disarmament with that last two regimes and hunting is generally illegal for most people... I live in Mass, I will definitely check out the Peabody museum gun.