THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A MOROCCAN AND A ZANZIBARI NIMCHA.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st August 2016, 04:23 AM

Regarding my first post here I set that as a bit of a brain teaser and everyone had a good shot at that with some interesting resulting key factors unearthed ...The Algerian variant is an interesting conundrum as telling these apart from the Moroccan is well near impossible ... It has ornate silver filigree and a more woven tapestry in the scabbard ...Personally I thought the use of clossonne was more the Algerian style but the point is it is too close ...they are virtually identical so far as I can tell...

As for the others it can be seen that the main differences are the Stud versus the Turtle and as Stu pointed out the more upright hilt and pommel appears on the Moroccan style whilst the Zanzibari type is more pointed downwards....Full marks all round ...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st August 2016, 11:47 PM

OK HERES ANOTHER PUZZLE... WHAT IS THIS....ON THE LEFT SHOWING TWO FACES OF A SWORD...?

On second thoughts I realize I cannot leave it as a simple question since it carries the almost visible description Pallasch!! Having said that what is the relationship with Pallasch and Nimcha? Is the name from Pala(Turkish) or is it simply a result of a continuous morphing nature of whats in a word?... Is it Venitian, Genoan or Italian? The blade is hugely broad and clearly for chopping and slashing. Has the style moved through the Med to such countries as Morocco with seagoing nations, Pirates, merchants or how ...? if this is the case...how did the form slide down the Red Sea or across the desert to the Indian Ocean? Somehow this form has affected several distinctly different regions...and beyond...

What about the second picture with the sword with brasswork on the hilt?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 1st September 2016, 11:26 PM

On plate 32 above see exhibit 1004 by Butin who expressly places this on the separate chart. This is what can be described as a VIP version since it is Ivory decorated in gold. In my view this is a classic VIP style though it is interesting in that post 1 of http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15325 shows it carried by a Hareem Palace guard.
Goldwork on an African comb (below) has been discussed by me before as being similar to that hilt decoration. In addition note that the leatherwork contains sworls (circles) in the leather which is very much an Omani decorative technique. It is accepted that this work could have been done by an Omani artesan working in Zanzibar /the close Zanj region or Oman. Note the upper scabbard ring is almost identical to another shown at http://cmmilitaryantiques.com/gallery.php?arid=5311 also a Zanzibari Nimcha.

I have a general couple of questions to which I do not know the answer...How did such a similar hilt develop in Morocco and in Zanzibar and who made that happen?

To give reason to my indicator of turtle hilt decoration atop the pommel I place below one of the common turtles in the region and the device itself on a Zanzibar Nimcha.

Rick · 2nd September 2016, 12:31 AM

Do you have any idea why the turtle should have particular significance to the Zanzibari peoples Iibrahim?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd September 2016, 12:33 AM

Hawksbill turtles (Eretmochelys imbricata) have traditionally been hunted around Zanzibar for their attractive shells, and Green turtles (Chelonia mydas) for their meat..

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd September 2016, 03:34 AM

Another marker Guide to the difference in the two Nimcha Hilt Types is the knuckle Guard on the Moroccan style is at right angles or L shaped ....whilst the Zanzibari form is S shaped or rounded as it joins the cross guard.

(not on all Zanzibari variants)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd September 2016, 05:11 AM

That Nimcha in the book a little earlier at #19... A reference on it suggests;

Quote" Pallasch; Culture: blade - Italian, Milan (with Ottoman decorations), mount - Ottoman, vessel (Hilt?) - Morocco
Dated: 16th Century
Material and Technique: blade of iron, forged, etched and engraved grip of iron, wood, horn
Measurement: total length of 107.7cm; blade 93.9cm; weight 1817g

Elector Christian I of Saxony received the saber as a gift in 1587 by Francesco I de ‘Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany. This weapon is one in many respects to the peculiarities of the Turkish Chamber. First and foremost, the impressive appearance is mentioned, which is caused by the massive, ornate edged blade.

This saber is made of very different work areas. While the vessel(hilt?) is from Morocco and the typical form there corresponds with strongly angled work and s-shaped quillons, the blade is an Italian work. She has been a chosen, and was crowned Pi marked accordingly in Milan. (what is Pi ?)

The blade was then decorated in the Orient. The etched and partly engraved decoration consists of medallions with stripes and scrolls, flowers and leaves. The middle stripe is a Spanish inscription found in a secret script-like character.

How did this strange mixture of different origins (come about) is not yet clear. Could possibly play in the events following the reconquest of Spain by 1492. Many Spanish Jews left the country after the conquest of Granada and moved some of North Africa in the dominion of the Ottomans."Unquote.

Source & Copyright: Staatliche Kunstsammlungen Dresden.

Although I am not sure what some of this translation means and I have placed in brackets and underlined ... I am sure you get the general drift...and whilst it forms a large part of the puzzle yet also gives us many clues in this regard.

31st August 2016, 11:47 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	OK HERES ANOTHER PUZZLE... WHAT IS THIS....ON THE LEFT SHOWING TWO FACES OF A SWORD...? On second thoughts I realize I cannot leave it as a simple question since it carries the almost visible description Pallasch!! Having said that what is the relationship with Pallasch and Nimcha? Is the name from Pala(Turkish) or is it simply a result of a continuous morphing nature of whats in a word?... Is it Venitian, Genoan or Italian? The blade is hugely broad and clearly for chopping and slashing. Has the style moved through the Med to such countries as Morocco with seagoing nations, Pirates, merchants or how ...? if this is the case...how did the form slide down the Red Sea or across the desert to the Indian Ocean? Somehow this form has affected several distinctly different regions...and beyond... What about the second picture with the sword with brasswork on the hilt? Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 1st September 2016 at 01:47 AM.

1st September 2016, 11:26 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	On plate 32 above see exhibit 1004 by Butin who expressly places this on the separate chart. This is what can be described as a VIP version since it is Ivory decorated in gold. In my view this is a classic VIP style though it is interesting in that post 1 of http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15325 shows it carried by a Hareem Palace guard. Goldwork on an African comb (below) has been discussed by me before as being similar to that hilt decoration. In addition note that the leatherwork contains sworls (circles) in the leather which is very much an Omani decorative technique. It is accepted that this work could have been done by an Omani artesan working in Zanzibar /the close Zanj region or Oman. Note the upper scabbard ring is almost identical to another shown at http://cmmilitaryantiques.com/gallery.php?arid=5311 also a Zanzibari Nimcha. I have a general couple of questions to which I do not know the answer...How did such a similar hilt develop in Morocco and in Zanzibar and who made that happen? To give reason to my indicator of turtle hilt decoration atop the pommel I place below one of the common turtles in the region and the device itself on a Zanzibar Nimcha. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 2nd September 2016 at 03:58 AM.

2nd September 2016, 12:31 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Puzzled Do you have any idea why the turtle should have particular significance to the Zanzibari peoples Iibrahim?

2nd September 2016, 05:11 AM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	That Nimcha in the book a little earlier at #19... A reference on it suggests; Quote" Pallasch; Culture: blade - Italian, Milan (with Ottoman decorations), mount - Ottoman, vessel (Hilt?) - Morocco Dated: 16th Century Material and Technique: blade of iron, forged, etched and engraved grip of iron, wood, horn Measurement: total length of 107.7cm; blade 93.9cm; weight 1817g Elector Christian I of Saxony received the saber as a gift in 1587 by Francesco I de ‘Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany. This weapon is one in many respects to the peculiarities of the Turkish Chamber. First and foremost, the impressive appearance is mentioned, which is caused by the massive, ornate edged blade. This saber is made of very different work areas. While the vessel(hilt?) is from Morocco and the typical form there corresponds with strongly angled work and s-shaped quillons, the blade is an Italian work. She has been a chosen, and was crowned Pi marked accordingly in Milan. (what is Pi ?) The blade was then decorated in the Orient. The etched and partly engraved decoration consists of medallions with stripes and scrolls, flowers and leaves. The middle stripe is a Spanish inscription found in a secret script-like character. How did this strange mixture of different origins (come about) is not yet clear. Could possibly play in the events following the reconquest of Spain by 1492. Many Spanish Jews left the country after the conquest of Granada and moved some of North Africa in the dominion of the Ottomans."Unquote. Source & Copyright: Staatliche Kunstsammlungen Dresden. Although I am not sure what some of this translation means and I have placed in brackets and underlined ... I am sure you get the general drift...and whilst it forms a large part of the puzzle yet also gives us many clues in this regard. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 2nd September 2016 at 07:35 AM.

31st August 2016, 04:23 AM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Regarding my first post here I set that as a bit of a brain teaser and everyone had a good shot at that with some interesting resulting key factors unearthed ...The Algerian variant is an interesting conundrum as telling these apart from the Moroccan is well near impossible ... It has ornate silver filigree and a more woven tapestry in the scabbard ...Personally I thought the use of clossonne was more the Algerian style but the point is it is too close ...they are virtually identical so far as I can tell... As for the others it can be seen that the main differences are the Stud versus the Turtle and as Stu pointed out the more upright hilt and pommel appears on the Moroccan style whilst the Zanzibari type is more pointed downwards....Full marks all round ...

2nd September 2016, 12:33 AM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Hawksbill turtles (Eretmochelys imbricata) have traditionally been hunted around Zanzibar for their attractive shells, and Green turtles (Chelonia mydas) for their meat..

2nd September 2016, 03:34 AM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Another marker Guide to the difference in the two Nimcha Hilt Types is the knuckle Guard on the Moroccan style is at right angles or L shaped ....whilst the Zanzibari form is S shaped or rounded as it joins the cross guard. (not on all Zanzibari variants)