THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A MOROCCAN AND A ZANZIBARI NIMCHA.

Kurt · 29th August 2016, 09:09 AM

Good Morning ,

this nimcha is from Algeria,
18 century, perhaps even earlier.

Kurt

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 29th August 2016, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt

Good Morning ,

this nimcha is from Algeria,
18 century, perhaps even earlier.

Kurt

Is he correct?

Kurt · 30th August 2016, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Is he correct?

See Anthony North "Islamic Arms"
Figure 20 + 22b

broadaxe · 30th August 2016, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt

Good Morning ,

this nimcha is from Algeria,
18 century, perhaps even earlier.

Kurt

I think so, too. This kind is likely to be a corsair sword (according to length and blade shape), minding that most of that region economy at that era was based upon piracy.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th August 2016, 11:22 PM

Yes the Tobias Blose as well as the Nimcha taken in an encounter in the Mediterranean are both recorded by me in earlier threads. In terms of the Algerian Nimcha I also threw that one in and you are right Algerian though I actually wanted to find a clossonne example which I know I put on Library..or saw in Library...but it doesnt work... Engineers trying to access...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st August 2016, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broadaxe

I think so, too. This kind is likely to be a corsair sword (according to length and blade shape), minding that most of that region economy at that era was based upon piracy.

Yes I recall doing that as a post earlier and I think he ran the opponent through and took his sword...Swashbuckling stuff!! The local economy certainly benefited from piracy although much of it was done on land I understand..

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st August 2016, 02:18 AM

There are 3 good charts from Butin; It can be seen that the charts are somewhat confusing since some Omani sword weapons are mixed with the wrong chart and the author calls one chart ARABIE...and another MAROC....but the displayed weapons argue with that nomenclature...ie they are bit mixed up . Having said that it is easy to unscramble and Butin takes his place at the top of the Ethnographic weapons specialty where he is greatly admired.

There is a separate chart(Diverse Oriental Armes) for what are almost odd men out including Sri Lankan and Yatagan styles and also in the same chart are those Ivory Hilts of Oman and Zanzibar with gold round and leaf shaped decorations. Another key appears however, in the shape of the Omani Scabbard with round sworls crafted into the leather.

Regarding the astute observation by Stu earlier ; It can be seen that the Moroccan form does indeed have a more upright facing pommel and the Zanzibar form more points downward.

Members have noted privately that the Zanzibar type has a ring guard whereas the Moroccan does not... This is not the case; Some Zanzibar Nimcha do have the ring guard but there are those that have none whereas I have never seen a ring guard on Moroccan Nimchas.

As a connected thread see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...zanzibar+yemen which makes the position clearer.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st August 2016, 02:54 AM

Here is a good historical reference: Showing the upright facing pommel and the single stud.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st August 2016, 03:23 AM

Regarding my first post here I set that as a bit of a brain teaser and everyone had a good shot at that with some interesting resulting key factors unearthed ...The Algerian variant is an interesting conundrum as telling these apart from the Moroccan is well near impossible ... It has ornate silver filigree and a more woven tapestry in the scabbard ...Personally I thought the use of clossonne was more the Algerian style but the point is it is too close ...they are virtually identical so far as I can tell...

As for the others it can be seen that the main differences are the Stud versus the Turtle and as Stu pointed out the more upright hilt and pommel appears on the Moroccan style whilst the Zanzibari type is more pointed downwards....Full marks all round ...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st August 2016, 10:47 PM

OK HERES ANOTHER PUZZLE... WHAT IS THIS....ON THE LEFT SHOWING TWO FACES OF A SWORD...?

On second thoughts I realize I cannot leave it as a simple question since it carries the almost visible description Pallasch!! Having said that what is the relationship with Pallasch and Nimcha? Is the name from Pala(Turkish) or is it simply a result of a continuous morphing nature of whats in a word?... Is it Venitian, Genoan or Italian? The blade is hugely broad and clearly for chopping and slashing. Has the style moved through the Med to such countries as Morocco with seagoing nations, Pirates, merchants or how ...? if this is the case...how did the form slide down the Red Sea or across the desert to the Indian Ocean? Somehow this form has affected several distinctly different regions...and beyond...

What about the second picture with the sword with brasswork on the hilt?

29th August 2016, 09:09 AM	#1
Kurt Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Germany Posts: 197	Good Morning , this nimcha is from Algeria, 18 century, perhaps even earlier. Kurt Attached Images

31st August 2016, 02:18 AM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	There are 3 good charts from Butin; It can be seen that the charts are somewhat confusing since some Omani sword weapons are mixed with the wrong chart and the author calls one chart ARABIE...and another MAROC....but the displayed weapons argue with that nomenclature...ie they are bit mixed up . Having said that it is easy to unscramble and Butin takes his place at the top of the Ethnographic weapons specialty where he is greatly admired. There is a separate chart(Diverse Oriental Armes) for what are almost odd men out including Sri Lankan and Yatagan styles and also in the same chart are those Ivory Hilts of Oman and Zanzibar with gold round and leaf shaped decorations. Another key appears however, in the shape of the Omani Scabbard with round sworls crafted into the leather. Regarding the astute observation by Stu earlier ; It can be seen that the Moroccan form does indeed have a more upright facing pommel and the Zanzibar form more points downward. Members have noted privately that the Zanzibar type has a ring guard whereas the Moroccan does not... This is not the case; Some Zanzibar Nimcha do have the ring guard but there are those that have none whereas I have never seen a ring guard on Moroccan Nimchas. As a connected thread see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...zanzibar+yemen which makes the position clearer. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 31st August 2016 at 02:50 AM.

31st August 2016, 02:54 AM	#8
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Here is a good historical reference: Showing the upright facing pommel and the single stud. Attached Images

31st August 2016, 10:47 PM	#10
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	OK HERES ANOTHER PUZZLE... WHAT IS THIS....ON THE LEFT SHOWING TWO FACES OF A SWORD...? On second thoughts I realize I cannot leave it as a simple question since it carries the almost visible description Pallasch!! Having said that what is the relationship with Pallasch and Nimcha? Is the name from Pala(Turkish) or is it simply a result of a continuous morphing nature of whats in a word?... Is it Venitian, Genoan or Italian? The blade is hugely broad and clearly for chopping and slashing. Has the style moved through the Med to such countries as Morocco with seagoing nations, Pirates, merchants or how ...? if this is the case...how did the form slide down the Red Sea or across the desert to the Indian Ocean? Somehow this form has affected several distinctly different regions...and beyond... What about the second picture with the sword with brasswork on the hilt? Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 1st September 2016 at 12:47 AM.

30th August 2016, 11:22 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Yes the Tobias Blose as well as the Nimcha taken in an encounter in the Mediterranean are both recorded by me in earlier threads. In terms of the Algerian Nimcha I also threw that one in and you are right Algerian though I actually wanted to find a clossonne example which I know I put on Library..or saw in Library...but it doesnt work... Engineers trying to access...

31st August 2016, 03:23 AM	#9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Regarding my first post here I set that as a bit of a brain teaser and everyone had a good shot at that with some interesting resulting key factors unearthed ...The Algerian variant is an interesting conundrum as telling these apart from the Moroccan is well near impossible ... It has ornate silver filigree and a more woven tapestry in the scabbard ...Personally I thought the use of clossonne was more the Algerian style but the point is it is too close ...they are virtually identical so far as I can tell... As for the others it can be seen that the main differences are the Stud versus the Turtle and as Stu pointed out the more upright hilt and pommel appears on the Moroccan style whilst the Zanzibari type is more pointed downwards....Full marks all round ...