CLOISONNE PRIMER FLASK AND BULLET BOX

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Rick,

I think that's more complicated than black or white.
Some Koran boxes are Koran boxes even the locals call them like that.
However some Koran boxes are very small and exactly the size of the palaskas. The ones who have this kind of bullet boxes will understand what I mean... For the use from a running horse or camel lol like in cowboy movies...
best

Hi Kubur !! How have you been ?

I've noticed the Koran holders all seem to have a similar squarish construction, and rings for attaching a throng or cord. Which could be carried around the neck, waistbelt, or most anything. This seems logical to me.

The Palaskas, wheather Ottoman, Greek, etc. all seem to have the construction/shape as per my pic above. With an intentional cast-in or soldered loop on the back side for a snug fit on a waist belt. And they all seem to be about the same size. Beyond tradition, I've often wondered why this specific shape was used. I'm still not sure. But, as mentioned above, I do not believe these were designed to carry loose lead balls. Instead, I believe they were used to carry pre-made paper cartridges for use with the pistols on horseback.

While I guess both containers could be used for cross purposes, it seems each was generally designed for their seperate purposes.

Rick

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Kubur !! How have you been ?
Rick

Hi Rick,
I' doing my best to collect some guns that you don't have but it's difficult...

Originally Posted by rickystl

rings for attaching a throng or cord. Which could be carried around the neck, waistbelt, or most anything. This seems logical to me.
The Palaskas, wheather Ottoman, Greek, etc. all seem to have the construction/shape as per my pic above. With an intentional cast-in or soldered loop on the back side for a snug fit on a waist belt. And they all seem to be about the same size.
Rick

OK I' ve a different opinion. Look at this small Ottoman box and what do you think about the suspensions...
Now the Greek and Turkish are not the Africans / Berbers. I think they had different fashions and uses. About the Moroccan rings of the so called Koran boxes, they are very similar to the rings that you can find on Moroccan powder flask and koummiya.

Originally Posted by rickystl

I do not believe these were designed to carry loose lead balls. Instead, I believe they were used to carry pre-made paper cartridges for use with the pistols on horseback.
While I guess both containers could be used for cross purposes, it seems each was generally designed for their seperate purposes.
Rick

I follow you on that one. My point was just that some Koran boxes were not Koran boxes.

[ward]

The only similarities are that they all are containers.

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by ward

The only similarities are that they all are containers.

Well Ward.......you're right. LOL

Kubur: Yes, I agree with what you are saying ref different styles for different Regions. We do have historical evidence that many of these small containers were in fact utilized to carry a Koran. But I've never seen any real evidence that the Ottoman/Greek style of Palaska, as shown above, was actually used to carry pre-formed cartridges for the pistols. But most of the reference material I have read refer to this paticular style as bullet containers. Maybe one of our Forum members as seen more conclusive evidence ?

One day a while back, curiosity had me try an experiment. I went to the shooting range to test my theory. I made up 10 pre-formed paper cartidges. 5 will fit inside each container very neatly in a vertical fashion. I fastened the belt around my waist and a Suma Rod suspended around my neck, and holding the pistol in my left hand. Using my right hand thumb, it was very quick and easy to open the lid of the container, grab a cartridge, and close the lid. Then tear off the powder end of the cartridge, prime the pan, then use the rest of the powder, ball and paper (as wadding) in the barrel with one push of the Suma Rod. (Today you would want to prime the pan last for safety reasons. But that was the procedure back in the period to increase the speed of loading). It was actually much faster retrieving the cartridge from these little containers than a leather pouch with a flap. I can't seem to envision priming the pan of a flintlock pistol while the horse is at a gallop. LOL But once the horse is still, I can see this would be a quick and convenient way to reload.
At least from a shooter's perspective, the theory seems to hold up. But again, it is still just my theory. I still have no historical evidence. It just may be a coincidence. Anyway, it was a fun experiment.

Rick

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

In deciding what the box may be used for my advice is to look at the decoration; In some Quran holders the work is geometrical in accordance with a general rule although not right across the geographical area of the religion from the Atlantic to the far flung reaches of China...because of regional variation...taste and localized tradition ~ On some Quran holders other religious scenes may be worked...for example a Mosque. (as seen above) Other boxes appear however they are the Palaskas of Greek form...some are boxes for grease whilst others carried bullets. The Quran holder was not used for bullets...

[Kubur]

Sold recently
Described as "powder flask and bullet container", I think it's clear now...
Changing his mind is never bad. Look at Darwin and the theory of the evolution...

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Sold recently
Described as "powder flask and bullet container", I think it's clear now...
Changing his mind is never bad. Look at Darwin and the theory of the evolution...

Nice pair!! As to the bullet box/Quran holder question.....the description neither clarifies or proves anything. How many times do we see items described as what they are not? The threads above IMHO strongly lean towards the Quran holder, and one even shows the box and its contents..........
Stu