CLOISONNE PRIMER FLASK AND BULLET BOX

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

This is a good question which is half answered as one is the gunpowder flask and the almost square item is ?
Certainly North Africa either Morocco and or Algeria. Note that clossone was more common in in Algeria and also applied to the Hilt of the Algerian Nimcha.
I will stick up some other examples in a moment...

There are examples at Library and the web illustrates many at https://images.search.yahoo.com/sear...e&fr=chr-yo_gc

The question is more interesting because some countries have Quran Holders...and some look like they could be for bullets or oil... but that the two ought not to be mixed up. It should be understood that what is meant as a Quran holder means a small Quran is meant to be contained inside...in miniature. On the other hand some boxes are for a note either from the Quran or a note of some important issue ...e.g. water rights / building rights/ or something to be kept safe ...most of the time they may be empty. This is called a Hirz...and can be seen in the group photo below (Omani) They are usually sealed with pitch.

A decorated Quran box holder can be decorated in a number of ways including geometrical art or inscribed with words from the Quran and in Morocco or Algeria some are covered in Clossonne..Other examples include those with magic squares. Quran holders are not usually sealed.

I would expect to see other decoration on a bullet container or grease box. Not withstanding this it is possible that boxes for the tourist market could appear with no rhyme or reason to what they are decorated with...although even that seems doubtful to me....

[rickystl]

Hi Stu.

Very nice matched pieces. And appear in good condition. Interesting the sliding cover.

Rick

[kahnjar1]

Hi Rick,
Both in excellent condition apart from one "tassle" missing from the box. I should add that both came together from the same source.
As far as the box is concerned it could be either a bullet box or Quran holder. Appears from above comments that there is a differing opinion on this, but that is what the Forum discussions are about.......
Stu

[ward]

With a slide off lid you would lose the top pretty quickly if it was a bullet box. Also can you imagine having this box half full with round lead balls on a horse or camel at full gallup. I would think that pieces of the decoration would be all over the place.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by ward

With a slide off lid you would lose the top pretty quickly if it was a bullet box. Also can you imagine having this box half full with round lead balls on a horse or camel at full gallup. I would think that pieces of the decoration would be all over the place.

.....Agreed........ so it is a Quran box.

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

.....Agreed........ so it is a Quran box.

Hi Stu.

Yes, I have to agree with Ward. The sliding cover would be too impractical to retrieve bullets from.
However, the typical hinged boxes work very well. I've actually tried this (although not from horse or camel LOL) with pre-formed cartidges (paper wrapped powder and ball) with the containers mounted on a waist belt. It works very well and is quick to reload a pistol. So I can see why these bullet containers were so popular.
Anyway, I still like your set. Very attracive looking.

Rick

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Stu.

Yes, I have to agree with Ward. The sliding cover would be too impractical to retrieve bullets from.
However, the typical hinged boxes work very well. I've actually tried this (although not from horse or camel LOL) with pre-formed cartidges (paper wrapped powder and ball) with the containers mounted on a waist belt. It works very well and is quick to reload a pistol. So I can see why these bullet containers were so popular.
Anyway, I still like your set. Very attracive looking.
Rick

Hi Rick,

I think that's more complicated than black or white.
Some Koran boxes are Koran boxes even the locals call them like that.
However some Koran boxes are very small and exactly the size of the palaskas. The ones who have this kind of bullet boxes will understand what I mean... For the use from a running horse or camel lol like in cowboy movies...
best

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Note that clossone was more common in in Algeria and also applied to the Hilt of the Algerian Nimcha.

Hi Ibrahiim,

Do you have some photos of this Algerian nimcha with cloisonne?
I'm curious to see that.
Thanks

Kubur

[ward]

Here is a similar one.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Ibrahiim,

Do you have some photos of this Algerian nimcha with cloisonne?
I'm curious to see that.
Thanks

Kubur

I have seen the very heavily clossoned Algerian Hilt and I will dig it out...Meanwhile something is wrong with the search function on Forum...or it could be my computer...I trailed all the way through about 14 pages of Library and somehow came up on BAT HILTS # 21 as~

The Nimcha. The Italian and/or Venetian sword appears as the origin of species and can be seen transmitted along the North African Mediterranean Coast in particular cloisonne versions in Algeria and other examples of a similar theme as far west as Morocco in the Mediterranean. It seems to have been a preferred weapon of the Barbary Coast ~ Pirates.
A few swords somehow arrived in England early in the 16thC though on long English blades etc etc

I place plate 32 by Buttin for interest.

The write up on the gilded sword below indicates Moroccan although I suggest it is Algerian as they were very fond of Cloisonne which you can see at the scabbard..and may also have been also on the hilt but degraded...I will search for a fully cloisonne hilt..

Meanwhile a few other boxes... are these Quran or bullet boxes...? The Islamic geometry indicates Quranic rather than for bullets. Excellent picture above by Ward and the logical conclusion that the long sliding lid is for a miniature Quran not for bullets...and illustrates a miniature Quran carried as a Talisman. (From an Arabic word EXPANDED UPON AS ~ Origin Mid 17th century: based on Arabic ṭilsam, apparently from an alteration of late Greek telesma 'completion, religious rite', from telein 'complete, perform a rite', from telos 'result, end'.).

I added a few Algerian Flyssa which although often adorned with red floor wax as a cheap way of lookalike Cloisonne ...added for interest.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I added a few Algerian Flyssa which although often adorned with red floor wax as a cheap way of lookalike Cloisonne ...added for interest.

Hi Ibrahiim,
This is not cloisonne. Most of your examples are inlay technic. The cloisonne is done with glaze/ ennamel. Not engraved or inserted but added.
The two first swords and your last sword are from Morocco by the way. Look on the forum we have few examples of nice cloisonne.
Best,

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Ibrahiim,
This is not cloisonne. Most of your examples are inlay technic. The cloisonne is done with glaze/ ennamel. Not engraved or inserted but added.
The two first swords and your last sword are from Morocco by the way. Look on the forum we have few examples of nice cloisonne.
Best,

Hello Kubur,...Good point however; What I said was I couldn't at this time access library for tech issues ...but I can recall seeing full cloisonne on there...I explained that red floor wax was used on the Flyssa...and placed some other Quran Boxes as further examples. I also outlined that I thought the provenance was slightly incorrect and that the cloisonne which is shown on the Nimcha with gold embellishment was in fact Algerian.

See also http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4782 which may also be Algerian...

Your point is interesting since after hours of searching I cannot separate the two... that may well be because they are inseparable in that Berber Moroccan and Berber Algerian may have the same sword; The Clossonne hilt Nimcha.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

HEREIN IS PART OF THE GEOGRAPHICAL CONUNDRUM WITH SWORDS OF THIS TYPE...SEE http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=128