Persian Pesh-kabz

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Ian

Quite possible.

Are these restored older knives or swords, or are they newly made with some older parts? To me these are newly made in an older style, especially when decorative features are added that were not originally present. As such, when I see nearly perfect decorative work (koftgari, hilts) on what should be an old blade I am very suspicious that this is the work of a modern craftsman and not an antique example.

That's why I am immediately suspicious of specimens that appear to be too good to be true--like the excellent example that you have shown at the head of this thread which is almost flawless. My immediate reaction is to ask why this is not a recently made/put together piece, or an older plain piece that has been dressed up recently to look better or more important (i.e., more expensive) than it should.

You have excellent provenance for your lovely knife and I have no problem accepting that it is a superb example of an antique knife.

Almost flawless is the second example. The first one has, unfortunately, far too many signs of very old age (pitting, cracks, missing parts, almost petrified leather spacers and extremely old walrus ivory). It is however in very good condition in comparison with some less fortunate contemporaries.

To my knowledge, unfortunately, there are no contemporary bladesmiths capable of making such minute detailed engravings. As I don't know any contemporary artists working in the old true damascening technique.

The second one is not restored, but completely made anew. But made anew in precisely old style and using an old, original 18th century blade. So blade and style old, everything else new.

[Sajen]

Very nice pieces you have there, you care them good and you are able to take very good pictures!

Best regards,
Detlef

[Bob A]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

To my knowledge, unfortunately, there are no contemporary bladesmiths capable of making such minute detailed engravings. As I don't know any contemporary artists working in the old true damascening technique.

A brief bit of googling "modern blade engraving" leads me to believe that nothing is impossible. Just by way of example, apples v oranges, a link to some eye candy . . . http://www.engravingglossary.com/Han...ossary%20D.htm

[mariusgmioc]

@ Detlef

Most of the photos were taken by the professional photographer of Czerny's. So it is his merit, not mine! Mine is only the one detailing the watering of the first knife (the one with green background).

When I got it, it had absolutely no trace of wootz so I had to etch it myself. It was the first blade I etched (but before that I spent tens of hours experimenting on a mundane wootz blade to make sure I don't damage the it in any way).

@ Bob A

As far as I remember, I paid for the second one significantly more than for the first one, despite knowing up-front it is a fully refurbished knife. It is however fully refurbished in the old style, employing genuine materials (elephant ivory) technique and skills. So it definitely is an 100% authentic knife. You can even say it is late 18th century since the blade defines the knife. But the most correct definition would be something like "18th century recently refurbished Indian Pesk-kabz."

Thank you for the sample photos of new engravings! They are definitely astonishing.

PS: I estimated the first one to be from the second half of 17th century (based on comparisons with similar examples). However, it can be early 18th century as well... I guess.

[ariel]

There are no contemporary bladesmiths capable to recreate the beauty of Indo-Persian wootz. None. Zero.

And this is despite the fact that modern metallurgy knows orders of magnitude more about technology of wootz making, with complex diagrams, exact temperatures, precise percentages of carbon and rare elements.

IMHO, and as I have learned from high class bladesmiths, the quality of wootz ingot contributes only part of the final result. Wootz ingots were exported from India in tens of thousands, and it was impossible to pre-test each and every one. Good and bad ingots went to Persia, Turkey, Egypt, Syria , Central Asia, Caucasus, you name it.

But the final blades from the Ottoman areal were always very simple, whereas Persian blade carried fantastic tabans.

What decided the fate of the final product was the technique of forging the blade: direction of the blows, their force, their number, the temperatures to start and to end forging and a multitude of yet unknown ( really forgotten) small tricks of the trade.


Whereas the former ( wootz ingots manufacture) can be reproduced scientifically, the latter ( blade forging) is not a science, it is an art. And that cannot be recreated by a single generation of even the best and the brightest modern smiths. Once lost, this art requires starting from scratch.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

@ Detlef

Most of the photos were taken by the professional photographer of Czerny's. So it is his merit, not mine! Mine is only the one detailing the watering of the first knife (the one with green background).

When I got it, it had absolutely no trace of wootz so I had to etch it myself. It was the first blade I etched (but before that I spent tens of hours experimenting on a mundane wootz blade to make sure I don't damage the it in any way).

The Baron von Weyhe collection was sold many years ago I thought, was this from the original sale or a more recent resale?

[Oliver Pinchot]

Your pesh qabz dates in the first half of the 18th century.

[Gavin Nugent]

These are both very fine types presented, and are presentation grade knives from the Northern West Indian and Afghan regions.
The first is certainly 18th century, many have been seen the market place in years past, several with impeccable provenance...whilst carrying Indian motifs, I'd place this towards in and in to the Afghan Indian frontiers.
The second in the red sheath, also Indian, into these Indo-Afghan frontiers, and IMHO, 19th century, circa 1800, Indian made....it could swing a couple of decades either way.
Whilst Persian influence may have been seen throughout these countries, I do not see these as Persian, but Indian made.
As far as pristine condition goes, the men of standing who received these gifts, their estates typically had the means to keep their personal effects in fine condition for generations.

Gavin

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Your pesh qabz dates in the first half of the 18th century.

Thank you Oliver! I was a little more generous but since it is my knife it is undestandable.

[mariusgmioc]

@ estrch

I got it just a few years ago but I don't know wheteher it was a remanant of the original sale or a resale.

@ Gavin

The second one is certainly North Indian.

The first one I am pretty sure is Persian (maybe Isfahan). I believe the Afghan ones tend to have longer blades and stouter hilts. Also the decoration style might be somehow diferent.
But it can be that I am wrong since in that area both styles and smiths travelled quite freely.