SOLO KRATON KERIS AUCTIONED / GIFT FROM JAVANESE ROYALS TO DUTCH BANKER

A. G. Maisey · 7th August 2016, 02:29 PM

I don't like guessing Jean, but really, whether it is, or is not the very first gonjo fitted to the blade is not relevant in my opinion.

A keris can, and does, sometimes lose its gonjo often for culturally related reasons.

It is important that the gonjo be replaced competently.

It is unimportant that is has been replaced.

Think about it like this:- the blade is male : the gonjo is female, just as the wrongko is female : the male wilah is mated to the female elements of the complete keris and when all are together we have a societal symbol of the unity of male and female, just as a married man & woman are together representative of the required unity that makes a whole: man cannot be complete without woman, woman cannot be complete without man. Now, in the human man/woman unity if one part dies, it should be replaced so that the remaining part can once again be complete. In traditional thought, a woman should not continue to exist as a part of a community after the death of her husband, but if she removes herself from the community, or in later times takes a new husband, the unity is restored and the community is once again in balance. If the community is in balance, the danger to the cosmos of a state of non-balance is avoided.

The whole thing is really very simple. It is just a matter of understanding what the keris really is.

Frankly, I don't think this is much of a blade from the artistic perspective, its just a keris, nothing special, not bad, not good. But it is a keris, and if thought about in a cultural/societal context the important thing is that it does have a gonjo and that gonjo is suited to the wilah.

Rick · 7th August 2016, 10:50 PM

Willem,
Was there anything tangible to link this keris to a particular person?
An old photograph?
Perhaps a letter mentioning the occasion?

asomotif · 7th August 2016, 11:14 PM

Hello Rick,

The seller claims that the keris comes from the granddaughter of this banker.
Here is the link to the Original listing :

http://veiling.catawiki.nl/kavels/68...-java-indonesi

We are not discussing prices here, but If you check the link, you will see that Alan's rule does not apply here :

Quote:

Just because a keris has been presented to somebody, by somebody, it does not mean that its value is any more than the sum value of its individual parts.

My questions regarding this keris are the following.
- the red fabric in the center of the pendok is described as a proof of high status. Is this true ?
- The pendokok/mendak has a name in it, but the technique used does not look like an indonesian way of working to me.
- The selut seems very recent to me.
- The "royal" family crest on the back of the keris. Is this a know decoration ?

Best regards,
Willem

Battara · 8th August 2016, 12:09 AM

Alan, thank you. Again, I have learned.

A. G. Maisey · 8th August 2016, 12:12 AM

Willem, any rule is only as good as the place where it applies.

Traffic in Australia travels on the left hand side of the road. That's the rule here.

Traffic in many other countries travels on the right hand side of the road. That's the rule in those other places.

Get a bit mixed up and you might die.

My approach to the keris, most especially the Javanese and Balinese keris is a cultural/societal approach. The way I think about and evaluate a keris is based in values and mores that apply to the keris in Jawa, and that were taught to me by Javanese people, amongst them two Karaton Surakarta empus. Before I learnt how to think about the keris in a way that is in harmony with these values and mores my way of looking at the keris was perhaps a little more aligned to the way in which most collectors think, particularly collectors who are outside these keris bearing societies. Although I can understand how others may think about the keris, and although I myself may have thought in a similar way in the past, I have left that way of thinking behind me a very long time ago.

Regarding the colour red. Within the Surakarta Karaton a red kemalo pendok is reserved for wear by members of the royal family or a bupati. This does not necessarily apply outside the kraton and use is situational. A red cloth insert is not a red kemalo pendok, but arguably it may be read in the same way.

This selut style does exist in early seluts, but the one pictured here probably dates from at the very earliest, the 1970's.

The mendak could have been marked with the name in Jawa, it is very simple embossing work, and the Javanese craftsmen are some of the best in the world at this craft. But the question is why it was so marked. Personally I have not the slightest idea why.

The "Royal Family Crest" ?
Sorry, I cannot see any such thing.
What I can see is a little wreath with a couple of Javanese letters in it. This might be a maker's mark, something a previous owner has had put there, a pattern number --- it could be anything. This sort of marking on the back of a pendok is very common.

Stories and sales hype.

mariusgmioc · 8th August 2016, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The "Royal Family Crest" ?
Sorry, I cannot see any such thing.
What I can see is a little wreath with a couple of Javanese letters in it. This might be a maker's mark, something a previous owner has had put there, a pattern number --- it could be anything. This sort of marking on the back of a pendok is very common.

Stories and sales hype.

That was my impression too. That isn't the Surakarta Kraton crest.

However, I have seen many kerises bearing the Kraton crest on sale for around 50 Euros in the Surakarta antique market. Didn't buy any because I thought they were overpriced... so you can get an idea about their quality.

A. G. Maisey · 8th August 2016, 12:39 PM

To be able to buy quality , on the ground, in Solo, you need connections.

Connections take time to build.

No connections, you don't even get to see quality, let alone buy it.

mariusgmioc · 8th August 2016, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

To be able to buy quality , on the ground, in Solo, you need connections.

Connections take time to build.

No connections, you don't even get to see quality, let alone buy it.

Hello Alan,

Yes, you are right, as I checked it out myself! I even saw a couple of dealers but they only had average and sub-average stuff.

So I ended up buying a Keris from a dealer here in the Netherlands.

asomotif · 9th August 2016, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

This selut style does exist in early seluts, but the one pictured here probably dates from at the very earliest, the 1970's.

The mendak could have been marked with the name in Jawa, it is very simple embossing work, and the Javanese craftsmen are some of the best in the world at this craft. But the question is why it was so marked. Personally I have not the slightest idea why.

.

Here are 2 more pictures of the selut/mendak combi.

The selut looks recent to me as well.
And the mendak also looks like construction of not matching parts.
Original sorsorran and meniran . but the part with the inscription looks very western european in my opinion.

I would not be surprised if this was part of an office stamp used at the bank.

asomotif · 9th August 2016, 07:44 PM

Ps. the keris is of excellent forging. Proof is offered by this picture.
well forged keris appear to have a good balance and can stand alone.

any opinions on this balance story ?

mariusgmioc · 9th August 2016, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Ps. the keris is of excellent forging. Proof is offered by this picture.
well forged keris appear to have a good balance and can stand alone.

any opinions on this balance story ?

Theoretically you should be able to do this with every single keris. Didn't try it myself but it's basic physics completely independent from the quality of the Keris. You may check it out by rotating the handle so to be out of balance. You should be able to make it stand even with the handle rotated... albeit it will stand at a slight inclination angle.

PS: Now I tried it myself and couldn't make it stand whatsoever. And the seller showed me that it stands... Maybe one needs a steady hand.

I attached the Surakarta sultan crest

David · 9th August 2016, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Ps. the keris is of excellent forging. Proof is offered by this picture.
well forged keris appear to have a good balance and can stand alone.

any opinions on this balance story ?

Sorry Willem, i can balance most keris regardless of the quality of the forging.

Roland_M · 10th August 2016, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

any opinions on this balance story ?

Yes, try it on a hard wooden surface.
With the carpet it is more wedged within the carpet with the scabbard as a kind of bearing.

Some keris are able to stand on wood or stone almost without the help of the scabbard. I really don't know, whether this is a sign of quality or not but I have one Keris, which stands on its tip almost by itself after few seconds.

Roland

David · 9th August 2016, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Here are 2 more pictures of the selut/mendak combi.

The selut looks recent to me as well.
And the mendak also looks like construction of not matching parts.
Original sorsorran and meniran . but the part with the inscription looks very western european in my opinion.

I would not be surprised if this was part of an office stamp used at the bank.

Willem, i can only read parts of what is written around the mendak. Could you write it out for us. I see what looks like "Rotterdam" and then maybe "Weezenber" (???) but i can see there are more letters involved.

asomotif · 9th August 2016, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Willem, i can only read parts of what is written around the mendak. Could you write it out for us. I see what looks like "Rotterdam" and then maybe "Weezenber" (???) but i can see there are more letters involved.

Hello David,

* VAN WEEZENBEEK * ROTTERDAM

kino · 13th August 2016, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A keris can, and does, sometimes lose its gonjo often for culturally related reasons.

What are the cultural reasons that a keris would loose it's gonjo?

A keris that is forged without a separate gonjo, what completes the blade, a scabbard?

A. G. Maisey · 14th August 2016, 12:42 AM

The most usual reason that a keris will lose its gonjo is in the case where an heirloom keris needs to be passed to more than one person. In such a case, the original gonjo is incorporated into the body of a new keris.

Usually only one new keris is made, but I have heard of a gonjo being incorporated into more than one new keris. In such a case the whole gonjo is incorporated into a single base forging which is then split into two or more forgings to to make the number of new keris required. The heirloom keris receives a new gonjo.

Then there is the situation where a keris needs to have its geometry altered to prioritise a dress requirement.

A gonjo that has been damaged either by accident or by time will commonly be replaced, this is regarded as keris maintenance. To many people the keris is a living entity, it needs to be taken care of as is any living entity.

Many, if not most, instances where a kinatah motif was awarded involved the making of a new gonjo.

Sultan Agung decreed that nobody in his realm could wear a keris with a pamor gonjo. All existing keris at that time needed to have a new gonjo fitted.

When we think about the keris, we need to think of it in terms that can relate to a man. A man can legitimately have many women, many wives. A woman can legitimately have only one man, one husband. From the man's perspective, the woman is replaceable, but if a woman is replaced, then her replacement needs to be in harmony with her husband, if she is not, the man gets rid of her.

Javanese symbolism is multi symbolism:- the same thing can be interpreted in many ways, depending on context.

Thus the keris is symbolic of the man, the family, the kin group, the ancestors, the community, the Kingdom, the Ruler, the Gunungan, the Meru and of Siwa.

The wilah is purely masculine and is the keris, but when paired with the gonjo and considered as such it becomes the keris as symbolic of the human situation where the symbolism has moved from singularity to duality, that is, not only the masculine singular, but the complete foundation stone of society:- man + woman, one cannot exist without the other.

However, even when the wilah is paired with the gonjo, it requires a warangka (wrongko, scabbard) in order to fully symbolise the other societally based things, because the nature of the warangka is feminine and family and community require both male and female to produce family. This is not to say that the wilah + gonjo cannot fulfil the symbolic roles associated with family and community, but when coupled with the warangka that symbolism is strengthened.

In its role as symbolic of the Gunungan, the Meru, and of Siwa, the wilah can fulfil this role without the inclusion of the warangka.

So, when we think of the keris, the one component that is indispensable is the wilah, if we add the gonjo we gain a little more, if we add the warangka we gain more again.

Where a wilah has been made in such a way that the gonjo is forged as a part of the blade what we are looking at is the permanent unification of male and female.

Some symbolism associated with the keris was present from the time that the Keris Buda appeared, other symbolism has developed over time. The important thing to be aware of is that the keris is a culturally powerful icon that is loaded with symbolism, and we cannot begin to understand that icon unless we take the symbolism into account.

kino · 16th August 2016, 01:32 AM

Thanks so much for the datum, it's very interesting and complex.
I've read it several times and found that there is a lot to digest in those paragraphs. Reading it leads to more questions....

It is a "pretty deep rabbit hole".

A. G. Maisey · 16th August 2016, 07:59 AM

Its not really all that difficult, but it does require the learning of a new way to think and the adoption of a set of standards that are not common in most 21st century societies.

asomotif · 17th August 2016, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Its not really all that difficult, but it does require the learning of a new way to think and the adoption of a set of standards that are not common in most 21st century societies.

The gonjo on this particular keris, is it a good replacement ?

I am still searching for opinions on how royal this keris might be.

Best regards,
Willem

David · 17th August 2016, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

I am still searching for opinions on how royal this keris might be.

Willem, i am not sure exactly what you mean by this. Perhaps you need to define the term "royal" in your expectation for a more specific answer. As Alan has already state, he has personally examined some rather ordinary keris in the Kraton storeroom. Is that your standard for what a "Royal" keris is? If so and you are still trying to determine if this keris is a "royal" keris then i suppose that it does seem possible that it could be. However, stories of origins, even when held sincerely by families for long periods of time, are not always rooted in reality. The story told about this keris may or may not be accurate and must be taken with a grain of salt at best. Supposedly (according to the seller's website) this story was relayed by the granddaughter of the banker. He doesn't say exactly when the prince's family supposedly gifted this to the banker, but if the selut is indeed no older than the 1970s as Alan suggests that places this "gift" in the modern era.The "crest" on the back of the pendok is not any recognizable "royal" crest. So that is not a strong indicator that this keris actually did come from anyone in the royal family. Still, i must question, is a keris that is gifted to another by a member of the royal family to a commoner considered to be a "Royal" keris? I am not suggesting an answer, merely posing the question.
However, if by "Royal" you are speaking of a keris that might be personally owned and carried by a member of the royal family i strongly suspect that this is not an example of that. I do realize that the internet is filled with false information, but i did manage to find this example of a Keris Nagasapto supposedly made for Pakubuwono VII (seventh Susuhunan from 1830 to 1858). Personally, when i think of what a "Royal" keris is i think about keris that have been carried by members of the royal family, not just gifted to commoners or held in storage by the Kraton for one reason or another. Others may have a different standard.

9th August 2016, 07:44 PM	#10
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	Ps. the keris is of excellent forging. Proof is offered by this picture. well forged keris appear to have a good balance and can stand alone. any opinions on this balance story ? Attached Images

7th August 2016, 02:29 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	I don't like guessing Jean, but really, whether it is, or is not the very first gonjo fitted to the blade is not relevant in my opinion. A keris can, and does, sometimes lose its gonjo often for culturally related reasons. It is important that the gonjo be replaced competently. It is unimportant that is has been replaced. Think about it like this:- the blade is male : the gonjo is female, just as the wrongko is female : the male wilah is mated to the female elements of the complete keris and when all are together we have a societal symbol of the unity of male and female, just as a married man & woman are together representative of the required unity that makes a whole: man cannot be complete without woman, woman cannot be complete without man. Now, in the human man/woman unity if one part dies, it should be replaced so that the remaining part can once again be complete. In traditional thought, a woman should not continue to exist as a part of a community after the death of her husband, but if she removes herself from the community, or in later times takes a new husband, the unity is restored and the community is once again in balance. If the community is in balance, the danger to the cosmos of a state of non-balance is avoided. The whole thing is really very simple. It is just a matter of understanding what the keris really is. Frankly, I don't think this is much of a blade from the artistic perspective, its just a keris, nothing special, not bad, not good. But it is a keris, and if thought about in a cultural/societal context the important thing is that it does have a gonjo and that gonjo is suited to the wilah.

7th August 2016, 10:50 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Willem, Was there anything tangible to link this keris to a particular person? An old photograph? Perhaps a letter mentioning the occasion?

8th August 2016, 12:09 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Alan, thank you. Again, I have learned.

8th August 2016, 12:12 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Willem, any rule is only as good as the place where it applies. Traffic in Australia travels on the left hand side of the road. That's the rule here. Traffic in many other countries travels on the right hand side of the road. That's the rule in those other places. Get a bit mixed up and you might die. My approach to the keris, most especially the Javanese and Balinese keris is a cultural/societal approach. The way I think about and evaluate a keris is based in values and mores that apply to the keris in Jawa, and that were taught to me by Javanese people, amongst them two Karaton Surakarta empus. Before I learnt how to think about the keris in a way that is in harmony with these values and mores my way of looking at the keris was perhaps a little more aligned to the way in which most collectors think, particularly collectors who are outside these keris bearing societies. Although I can understand how others may think about the keris, and although I myself may have thought in a similar way in the past, I have left that way of thinking behind me a very long time ago. Regarding the colour red. Within the Surakarta Karaton a red kemalo pendok is reserved for wear by members of the royal family or a bupati. This does not necessarily apply outside the kraton and use is situational. A red cloth insert is not a red kemalo pendok, but arguably it may be read in the same way. This selut style does exist in early seluts, but the one pictured here probably dates from at the very earliest, the 1970's. The mendak could have been marked with the name in Jawa, it is very simple embossing work, and the Javanese craftsmen are some of the best in the world at this craft. But the question is why it was so marked. Personally I have not the slightest idea why. The "Royal Family Crest" ? Sorry, I cannot see any such thing. What I can see is a little wreath with a couple of Javanese letters in it. This might be a maker's mark, something a previous owner has had put there, a pattern number --- it could be anything. This sort of marking on the back of a pendok is very common. Stories and sales hype.

8th August 2016, 12:39 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	To be able to buy quality , on the ground, in Solo, you need connections. Connections take time to build. No connections, you don't even get to see quality, let alone buy it.

14th August 2016, 12:42 AM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	The most usual reason that a keris will lose its gonjo is in the case where an heirloom keris needs to be passed to more than one person. In such a case, the original gonjo is incorporated into the body of a new keris. Usually only one new keris is made, but I have heard of a gonjo being incorporated into more than one new keris. In such a case the whole gonjo is incorporated into a single base forging which is then split into two or more forgings to to make the number of new keris required. The heirloom keris receives a new gonjo. Then there is the situation where a keris needs to have its geometry altered to prioritise a dress requirement. A gonjo that has been damaged either by accident or by time will commonly be replaced, this is regarded as keris maintenance. To many people the keris is a living entity, it needs to be taken care of as is any living entity. Many, if not most, instances where a kinatah motif was awarded involved the making of a new gonjo. Sultan Agung decreed that nobody in his realm could wear a keris with a pamor gonjo. All existing keris at that time needed to have a new gonjo fitted. When we think about the keris, we need to think of it in terms that can relate to a man. A man can legitimately have many women, many wives. A woman can legitimately have only one man, one husband. From the man's perspective, the woman is replaceable, but if a woman is replaced, then her replacement needs to be in harmony with her husband, if she is not, the man gets rid of her. Javanese symbolism is multi symbolism:- the same thing can be interpreted in many ways, depending on context. Thus the keris is symbolic of the man, the family, the kin group, the ancestors, the community, the Kingdom, the Ruler, the Gunungan, the Meru and of Siwa. The wilah is purely masculine and is the keris, but when paired with the gonjo and considered as such it becomes the keris as symbolic of the human situation where the symbolism has moved from singularity to duality, that is, not only the masculine singular, but the complete foundation stone of society:- man + woman, one cannot exist without the other. However, even when the wilah is paired with the gonjo, it requires a warangka (wrongko, scabbard) in order to fully symbolise the other societally based things, because the nature of the warangka is feminine and family and community require both male and female to produce family. This is not to say that the wilah + gonjo cannot fulfil the symbolic roles associated with family and community, but when coupled with the warangka that symbolism is strengthened. In its role as symbolic of the Gunungan, the Meru, and of Siwa, the wilah can fulfil this role without the inclusion of the warangka. So, when we think of the keris, the one component that is indispensable is the wilah, if we add the gonjo we gain a little more, if we add the warangka we gain more again. Where a wilah has been made in such a way that the gonjo is forged as a part of the blade what we are looking at is the permanent unification of male and female. Some symbolism associated with the keris was present from the time that the Keris Buda appeared, other symbolism has developed over time. The important thing to be aware of is that the keris is a culturally powerful icon that is loaded with symbolism, and we cannot begin to understand that icon unless we take the symbolism into account.

16th August 2016, 01:32 AM	#18
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,018	Thanks so much for the datum, it's very interesting and complex. I've read it several times and found that there is a lot to digest in those paragraphs. Reading it leads to more questions.... It is a "pretty deep rabbit hole".

16th August 2016, 07:59 AM	#19
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Its not really all that difficult, but it does require the learning of a new way to think and the adoption of a set of standards that are not common in most 21st century societies.