Earliest Use of Paired Crescent Moons on Solingen Blades

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th August 2016, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim, it truly is hard to determine reasonably accurate dates of adoption of the various symbols and devices from European blades into the talismanic motifs on native blades. We can compellingly presume these are indeed talismanic as in the case of the 'dukari' (paired moons) which are the subject of our study, these were placed in addorsed position while most European blades had single examples of the moon.
Native blacksmiths in the Sahara with the Tuareg, as well as Hausas, were just as in many cultures, viewed with dark suspicions, and their blades seen as possessing 'magic'.

While the sun and stars are included in the astral theme of blades in many cultures and these kinds of motif, it is the moon which seems to carry the most impetus talismanially and with folk religions and superstitions.

I think you are quite right in looking toward the 'hogs back' or sickle marks of European origin as perhaps a lunar symbol. The arc and the dentations indicating reflective rays, whether of that intention in European parlance or not, certainly might be perceived in native cultures as a reflective moon.
While many aspects of such symbolism in native folk religions have to do with phases of the moon (as with Lohr panels on Sudanese blades), the commonly placed use of the duality theme is also often present.

With cosmological symbolism often key in folk religions and superstitions in many native cultures, it is not surprising that they saw the talismanic and magically themed blades of Europe as having imbued powers. Even with blades with alternate themes, inscriptions or marks, they would likely have seen these in the same sense, but presuming these other motif as simply the same scope but similar properties.

Absolutely Ulfberth!!
The more examples we can find of these moons in different contexts the more we can build a reasonable perspective on their diffusion both geographically and perhaps even chronologically.

Hello Jim, and I welcome your post!

I occasionally see references pushing the style or fashion for moons back to the 14th Century coinciding with the thought that European blades were being exported in about the same time frame.. Much of that is somewhat hearsay thus I search for this distinction... It is interesting that in searching for Talismanic work the most compelling evidence today...and still used..comes from Morocco. It is not only the talimanic designs and spells but the person who does the practical work;...The smiths who convey from generation to generation the secret powers of such craft; It is something of a double act with the metal smith, silversmith or metalworker doing the actual work whilst the actual spells are done by the wandering magician folk..written on paper...then you go off to a silver man and it gets done... There is a powerful history of Jewish work there and the wandering and very weird looking magician people who still look like they just stepped out of an ancient history manual on spells and magic...Sort of like apothecaries ..and if they had a pointed hat you would think of Merlin or some sort of Witch or magic man... They are highly respected and very much part of the scenery as you find in all the old souks...quite amazing!
Ibrahiim.

Jim McDougall · 6th August 2016, 09:28 PM

Very well noted Ibrahiim!! and these talismanic properties in these markings used on sword blades, and they have been used in varied form well into antiquity. It seems such marks are found even on blades into Roman times (I think reference in Oakeshott, 1962) among others in similar simple style.
In central Europe into early times tribal people often used astral symbols, such as Szekelers who used sun and moon as symbols in their material culture.

It also seems that I have seen suggestions of the double addorsed crescent axes as seen often in India and others having symbolic lunar significance.

Magic in various cultures may often be one of the key elements, from the shaman into prehistory into more recent times to the medicine men, witch doctors and associated capacities .Elements of folk religion, pagan and animist traditions to the established mystic and magic properties often held in many of the major religions are widely known. However their esoterica may lead to misunderstanding many aspects of the symbolism.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 15th August 2016, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Very well noted Ibrahiim!! and these talismanic properties in these markings used on sword blades, and they have been used in varied form well into antiquity. It seems such marks are found even on blades into Roman times (I think reference in Oakeshott, 1962) among others in similar simple style.
In central Europe into early times tribal people often used astral symbols, such as Szekelers who used sun and moon as symbols in their material culture.

It also seems that I have seen suggestions of the double addorsed crescent axes as seen often in India and others having symbolic lunar significance.

Magic in various cultures may often be one of the key elements, from the shaman into prehistory into more recent times to the medicine men, witch doctors and associated capacities .Elements of folk religion, pagan and animist traditions to the established mystic and magic properties often held in many of the major religions are widely known. However their esoterica may lead to misunderstanding many aspects of the symbolism.

Indeed Jim and I note on passing the subject of the Evil Eye pointing to the amazing eye built into an English Church at Edmundbyers which is probably Saxon...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 15th August 2016, 02:10 AM

Jim McDougall · 15th August 2016, 06:13 PM

Hi Ibrahiim,
Actually that rayed eye represents the Eye of Providence, often used in Christian iconography, and became popular in renaissance iconography.
It represents the Eye of God over mankind.
It is often associated with Freemasonry, and on the US dollar bill it is atop pyramid. The association with the symbol on US currency and that Masonic association is debated.

The 'evil eye' is of course an entirely separate notion, but indeed in many cases associated with the purpose of talismanic imagery, but with blade decoration most typically on ethnographic rather than European blades.

Thank you for keeping this thread current!!!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 17th August 2016, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Ibrahiim,
Actually that rayed eye represents the Eye of Providence, often used in Christian iconography, and became popular in renaissance iconography.
It represents the Eye of God over mankind.
It is often associated with Freemasonry, and on the US dollar bill it is atop pyramid. The association with the symbol on US currency and that Masonic association is debated.

The 'evil eye' is of course an entirely separate notion, but indeed in many cases associated with the purpose of talismanic imagery, but with blade decoration most typically on ethnographic rather than European blades.

Thank you for keeping this thread current!!!

Thanks Jim, Also interesting with the six pointed star ... Regards Ibrahiim...

DStirk · 11th March 2021, 10:46 PM

Apologies in advance for resurrecting an old thread that may have been resolved elsewhere. I have been researching markings on a collection of Scottish basket-hilted swords that were damaged in a house fire. They belong to my stepfather and I am in the process of stabilizing and conserving them as best I can. This is my first post on the forum, and I hope it is of interest to some here.

One sword in particular is relevant to this thread, as it has the triple fuller/ paired stylized crescent moons, and partial tang features of many Kaskara blades, yet was incorporated into a probable basket-hilt type. I say probable, because the basket hilt was lost in the fire. I am intrigued by the short tang, as this seems like a structural weakness and probable liability when paired with a basket-hilt. Perhaps it was ceremonial, and not intended to be used in anger.

I am also curious about whether the blade was European and intended for African sale, but ended up in Scotland, or whether it could conceivably have ended up in Scotland via Africa. From this thread I have learned that the paired moons on the blade are more likely to be African than European.

Anyway, here are some photos. In the meantime I will ask my stepdad what he knows of the provenance of the blade, and whether he has any pre-fire photos of it with the hilt.

Cheers,
Duncan[IMG]http://[/IMG]

Mefidk · 12th March 2021, 08:56 AM

Hello Duncan, thanks for posting this interesting example. Sorry to hear about fire damage, it along with theft is something we all fear for our collections!
I have recently been examining a number of kaskara tangs, and this does very much look like a kaskara blade.
The short tang was inserted through a crossguard into a cylindrical grip and a pin used to hold it all together. This is of course not the strongest possible construction, but when well packed it is surprisingly strong.
Prior to these swords becoming valuable in their own right there was a time when people often transformed kaskara from their proper form to European types. I own a couple of these myself. Some of this might have been innocent thinking these were knightly swords, but often they were retrofitted to schiavonas and basket hilts (the blade dimensions being the same). The tang is the give away of course, but unless the sword is dismantled as in your case it can be hard to see.

Give aways for the kaskara are the slightly lozenge shaped tang with the hole in a flattened part and the uneven shoulders to the blade. This triple fuller with cresent moons is probably the most common kaskara blade type, and judging from your blade I'd say that is is an older one (it looks in the pictures to have a less flat profile than the later blades.

These blades were often (I believe) trade blades which were unmarked on arriving in Africa, but were then modified by the addition of the dukari and forming of the tang to fit the local swords. You will often find the identical blades in takouba which have a different tang (long and thin, peened over the guard). I would very much be interested in anyone knows of museum examples of these munitions quality blades since although general consensus seems to be Solingen, I have not seen any definite proof in terms of shipping records etc.. Plenty for higher end blades with makers marks, but these specific ones are more common and still a bit of mystery.

The picture is one of my kaskara, this one was one of those 'restored' as a knightly sword.
Best,
Chris

11th March 2021, 10:46 PM	#7
DStirk Member Join Date: Mar 2021 Posts: 4	Paired crescent Scottish broadsword blade Apologies in advance for resurrecting an old thread that may have been resolved elsewhere. I have been researching markings on a collection of Scottish basket-hilted swords that were damaged in a house fire. They belong to my stepfather and I am in the process of stabilizing and conserving them as best I can. This is my first post on the forum, and I hope it is of interest to some here. One sword in particular is relevant to this thread, as it has the triple fuller/ paired stylized crescent moons, and partial tang features of many Kaskara blades, yet was incorporated into a probable basket-hilt type. I say probable, because the basket hilt was lost in the fire. I am intrigued by the short tang, as this seems like a structural weakness and probable liability when paired with a basket-hilt. Perhaps it was ceremonial, and not intended to be used in anger. I am also curious about whether the blade was European and intended for African sale, but ended up in Scotland, or whether it could conceivably have ended up in Scotland via Africa. From this thread I have learned that the paired moons on the blade are more likely to be African than European. Anyway, here are some photos. In the meantime I will ask my stepdad what he knows of the provenance of the blade, and whether he has any pre-fire photos of it with the hilt. Cheers, Duncan[IMG]http://[/IMG] Attached Images

12th March 2021, 08:56 AM	#8
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Hello Duncan, thanks for posting this interesting example. Sorry to hear about fire damage, it along with theft is something we all fear for our collections! I have recently been examining a number of kaskara tangs, and this does very much look like a kaskara blade. The short tang was inserted through a crossguard into a cylindrical grip and a pin used to hold it all together. This is of course not the strongest possible construction, but when well packed it is surprisingly strong. Prior to these swords becoming valuable in their own right there was a time when people often transformed kaskara from their proper form to European types. I own a couple of these myself. Some of this might have been innocent thinking these were knightly swords, but often they were retrofitted to schiavonas and basket hilts (the blade dimensions being the same). The tang is the give away of course, but unless the sword is dismantled as in your case it can be hard to see. Give aways for the kaskara are the slightly lozenge shaped tang with the hole in a flattened part and the uneven shoulders to the blade. This triple fuller with cresent moons is probably the most common kaskara blade type, and judging from your blade I'd say that is is an older one (it looks in the pictures to have a less flat profile than the later blades. These blades were often (I believe) trade blades which were unmarked on arriving in Africa, but were then modified by the addition of the dukari and forming of the tang to fit the local swords. You will often find the identical blades in takouba which have a different tang (long and thin, peened over the guard). I would very much be interested in anyone knows of museum examples of these munitions quality blades since although general consensus seems to be Solingen, I have not seen any definite proof in terms of shipping records etc.. Plenty for higher end blades with makers marks, but these specific ones are more common and still a bit of mystery. The picture is one of my kaskara, this one was one of those 'restored' as a knightly sword. Best, Chris Attached Images

6th August 2016, 09:28 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Very well noted Ibrahiim!! and these talismanic properties in these markings used on sword blades, and they have been used in varied form well into antiquity. It seems such marks are found even on blades into Roman times (I think reference in Oakeshott, 1962) among others in similar simple style. In central Europe into early times tribal people often used astral symbols, such as Szekelers who used sun and moon as symbols in their material culture. It also seems that I have seen suggestions of the double addorsed crescent axes as seen often in India and others having symbolic lunar significance. Magic in various cultures may often be one of the key elements, from the shaman into prehistory into more recent times to the medicine men, witch doctors and associated capacities .Elements of folk religion, pagan and animist traditions to the established mystic and magic properties often held in many of the major religions are widely known. However their esoterica may lead to misunderstanding many aspects of the symbolism.

15th August 2016, 02:10 AM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408

15th August 2016, 06:13 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Ibrahiim, Actually that rayed eye represents the Eye of Providence, often used in Christian iconography, and became popular in renaissance iconography. It represents the Eye of God over mankind. It is often associated with Freemasonry, and on the US dollar bill it is atop pyramid. The association with the symbol on US currency and that Masonic association is debated. The 'evil eye' is of course an entirely separate notion, but indeed in many cases associated with the purpose of talismanic imagery, but with blade decoration most typically on ethnographic rather than European blades. Thank you for keeping this thread current!!!