What is a KARUD?!

mariusgmioc · 5th August 2016, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Sorry, I have to go with Stuart Cary Welch here.

Do you really think that these completely different blade types should have the same name?

First, they are not absolutely different.

Second,
1. What about Artzi who you cited as being very knowledgeable and thrustworthy yourself?!
2. What about Stone, page 351, and page 353 fig. 1?!
3. What about Elgood, Arms & Armour at the Jaipur Court, pages 53 and 54?!
4. What about Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani, Arms and Armor from Iran, from page 219 on
5, What about Withers & Capwell, The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Knives, Swords, Spears & Daggers, page 228, 229
7. What about the millions and millions of Persians who probably invented both the dagger and the word, used it for centuries and continue to use it in the present calling it Khanjar (photos 4, 5).
8. What about the millions and millions of Omanis who probably invented the specific variety of dagger (the one with the belt in the photo 3), used it for centuries and continue to use it in the present calling it Khanjar?!
9. What about the millions and millions of North Indians who used it for centuries and continue to use it in the present calling it Khanjar whether curved or double curved (photos 1, 2)?!

However, ultimately it is a matter of choice, and the choice is yours. If you want to give Stuart Cary Welch credit over the millions of Persians who invented the dagger and the word...

PS: The definition for Khanjar you used in your posting (the excerpt from the book) perfectly describes my examples as well. According to the definition you mentioned they are all Khanjars. In English "recurved" simply means curved backwards, NOT double curved. Moreover, the Persians and the Arabs who are credited with originating this word, would not refer to a double curved dagger since they don't use such a dagger but a simple "recurved" one (as in photos 3-5).

estcrh · 5th August 2016, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

In English "recurved" simply means curved backwards, NOT double curved.

I think you are wrong, recurved refers to a blade that curves twice.

From Arms and Armor By DK Publishing and Arms and Armour: Traditional Weapons of India By E. Jaiwant Paul.

mariusgmioc · 5th August 2016, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

I think you are wrong, recurved refers to a blade that curves twice.

I thought exactly the same... until I bothered to check with some dictionaries of English language. Check it yourself!

And even if it were to mean double curve, what about the millions of Persians, Arabs and Indians who use this type of dagger with single curve and call it Khanjar?!

Try telling an Omani that he is using a Jambyia because an academic in UK, who knows better, decided this way!

PS I have the book of Jaiwant Paul, but he makes the distinction because of the hilt, not because of the blade. I have been to India and I can assure you the Indians (at least all to whom I spoke with) do not distinguish between single or double curve dagger that has the typical grip and call them both either Khanjar or Mughal dagger providing they have the "pistol" hilt. However they call Jambyia the Persian Khanjars with "I" shaped hilt.

Photo taken in the fort museum of Jodhpur. All daggers on the left were called Khanjars. The two Karuds, were called Peshkabz.

estcrh · 5th August 2016, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

And even if it were to mean double curve, what about the millions of Persians, Arabs and Indians who use this type of dagger with single curve and call it Khanjar?!

Try telling an Omani that he is using a Jambyia because an academic in UK, who knows better, decided this way!

When it comes to daggers "recurved" means double curved. As I mentioned already, in English speaking countries it is not what the local people call a certain weapon that determines the eventual description in English. What an Omani calls his dagger is a seperate issue. Since many of these weapons are used in several countries what determines which particular culture gets naming rights?

mariusgmioc · 5th August 2016, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

When it comes to daggers "recurved" means double curved. As I mentioned already, in English speaking countries it is not what the local people call a certain weapon that determines the eventual description in English. What an Omani calls his dagger is a seperate issue. Since many of these weapons are used in several countries what determines which particular culture gets naming rights?

1. "When it comes to daggers "recurved" means double curved." Now you are redefining English language to serve your purpose.

2. "Since many of these weapons are used in several countries what determines which particular culture gets naming rights?"I would assume the country that originated the word... and the weapon. In this case the Persians/Arabs. Do you know better?

3. You are deliberately avoiding the issues for which you don't have convenient answers. Like what about references I quoted? What about the straight bladed or single curved Indian daggers on the left side of the photo in the museum in Jodhpur?

4. It is as I said: you are free to call them as you wish.

5. Have a nice weekend!

Kubur · 5th August 2016, 10:28 PM

Please guys, it's just fun. We have the same passion.
It's not so important.
I think we have plenty of threads on this topic.
khanjar is like kancar in Turkish or even kinjal, a dagger.
Just bigger than a knife and curved I don't know... no???

estcrh · 6th August 2016, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

1. "When it comes to daggers "recurved" means double curved." Now you are redefining English language to serve your purpose.

I only point out what is available as far as references go, here is an example. While you may have your own thoughts as to what "recurved" means, when it comes to dagger blades it is a common term for a double curved blade, Runjeet uses the term "recurved" to describe a double curved blade. Artzi uses "recurving" to describe a double curved blade as well.

As for "khanjar", for many people it describes a recurved dagger as opposed to a single curved dagger.

ariel · 6th August 2016, 04:13 AM

Guys,
Cool it, it's not worth arguing and creating "bad blood". It is just a name game, and most of it is determined by the locality of objects under discussion.

In Persia, khanjar is always double edged dagger, and pesh Kabz is always single edged. In Aravia proper , what is called khanjar in Oman ( Eastern part of the peninsula, under significant Persian influence) is called Janbia in Yemen ( purely Arabic Western part of the same peninsula). Balkan localities used the same term, -khanjar or hancer, - to designate what we call Yataghans. Caucasians used the word Khanjali ( modified Khanjar) for their straight daggers, and it was further simplified to Kindjal (likely) by the Russians.

Bichaq, pichaq, pichok, p'chak are just dialectic variants of the same Turcik word for "knife" , whereas Kard and Kord are just Persian and Tajik words for the same "knife". In practice, Uzbeki P'chak and Tajik Kord are physically indistinguishable despite passionate mutual dislike between these two ethnicities. There are more differences within each designation due to what village it was produced in, than between the two of them.

Karud ( Pesh Kabz with straight blade) is just one of the phonetic renditions of the Persian word Kard as heard by the Europeans: it was also recorded in the literature as Kared and Karde. And Choora ( a local analog of the"Karud" that is endemic to Eastern Afghanistan/Northwestern Pakistan, Khyber Pass) is the same "knife" , only stemming from Hindi language.

The bottom line, 90% of all short bladed weapons in the Indo-Persian areal are called just "knife", and the fancy differences we so passionately argue about are due to the ethnic roots of their owners: Hindi, Turcik or Persian.

The same eating implement to cut steaks or spread butter on a toast will be called messer in Germany, nozh in Russia, knife in England, couteau in France and sakin in Israel. These days all of them are likely to be cheaply mass produced in China or Brazil.

Is it worth arguing or writing articles about?

Cheer up! :-))))))))))

mariusgmioc · 6th August 2016, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

I only point out what is available as far as references go, here is an example. While you may have your own thoughts as to what "recurved" means, when it comes to dagger blades it is a common term for a double curved blade, Runjeet uses the term "recurved" to describe a double curved blade. Artzi uses "recurving" to describe a double curved blade as well.

As for "khanjar", for many people it describes a recurved dagger as opposed to a single curved dagger.

It appears that what was originally a mistake, it has become to be accepted as it is. Wouldn't be neither the first, nor the biggest.

But why shall we continue propagating it? Why shouldn't we straighten things up?

Have a look at Ariel's message and have a nice weekend!

5th August 2016, 10:28 PM	#6
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Please guys, it's just fun. We have the same passion. It's not so important. I think we have plenty of threads on this topic. khanjar is like kancar in Turkish or even kinjal, a dagger. Just bigger than a knife and curved I don't know... no???

6th August 2016, 04:13 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Guys, Cool it, it's not worth arguing and creating "bad blood". It is just a name game, and most of it is determined by the locality of objects under discussion. In Persia, khanjar is always double edged dagger, and pesh Kabz is always single edged. In Aravia proper , what is called khanjar in Oman ( Eastern part of the peninsula, under significant Persian influence) is called Janbia in Yemen ( purely Arabic Western part of the same peninsula). Balkan localities used the same term, -khanjar or hancer, - to designate what we call Yataghans. Caucasians used the word Khanjali ( modified Khanjar) for their straight daggers, and it was further simplified to Kindjal (likely) by the Russians. Bichaq, pichaq, pichok, p'chak are just dialectic variants of the same Turcik word for "knife" , whereas Kard and Kord are just Persian and Tajik words for the same "knife". In practice, Uzbeki P'chak and Tajik Kord are physically indistinguishable despite passionate mutual dislike between these two ethnicities. There are more differences within each designation due to what village it was produced in, than between the two of them. Karud ( Pesh Kabz with straight blade) is just one of the phonetic renditions of the Persian word Kard as heard by the Europeans: it was also recorded in the literature as Kared and Karde. And Choora ( a local analog of the"Karud" that is endemic to Eastern Afghanistan/Northwestern Pakistan, Khyber Pass) is the same "knife" , only stemming from Hindi language. The bottom line, 90% of all short bladed weapons in the Indo-Persian areal are called just "knife", and the fancy differences we so passionately argue about are due to the ethnic roots of their owners: Hindi, Turcik or Persian. The same eating implement to cut steaks or spread butter on a toast will be called messer in Germany, nozh in Russia, knife in England, couteau in France and sakin in Israel. These days all of them are likely to be cheaply mass produced in China or Brazil. Is it worth arguing or writing articles about? Cheer up! :-))))))))))