Earliest Use of Paired Crescent Moons on Solingen Blades

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Excellent thread ...To which I add in agreement that these moons were probably not owned by individual sword makers moreover they were associated with different factories rather as a quality marker...something like the Passau wolf marks...and Ferrera marks. In my view I view Arabian swords with moons placed by local sword smiths here at https://books.google.com.om/books?id...swords&f=false

I am not certain when all the sword design/decoration influence occurred between Europe and Africa though some sources indicate as early as 14th C...It seems to me that moons were often accompanied by suns in the European examples but the Moons were either favoured by African and Islamic subjects because of the new moon thus must have carried a TALISMANIC IDEA..

Ibrahiim, it truly is hard to determine reasonably accurate dates of adoption of the various symbols and devices from European blades into the talismanic motifs on native blades. We can compellingly presume these are indeed talismanic as in the case of the 'dukari' (paired moons) which are the subject of our study, these were placed in addorsed position while most European blades had single examples of the moon.
Native blacksmiths in the Sahara with the Tuareg, as well as Hausas, were just as in many cultures, viewed with dark suspicions, and their blades seen as possessing 'magic'.

While the sun and stars are included in the astral theme of blades in many cultures and these kinds of motif, it is the moon which seems to carry the most impetus talismanially and with folk religions and superstitions.

I think you are quite right in looking toward the 'hogs back' or sickle marks of European origin as perhaps a lunar symbol. The arc and the dentations indicating reflective rays, whether of that intention in European parlance or not, certainly might be perceived in native cultures as a reflective moon.
While many aspects of such symbolism in native folk religions have to do with phases of the moon (as with Lohr panels on Sudanese blades), the commonly placed use of the duality theme is also often present.

With cosmological symbolism often key in folk religions and superstitions in many native cultures, it is not surprising that they saw the talismanic and magically themed blades of Europe as having imbued powers. Even with blades with alternate themes, inscriptions or marks, they would likely have seen these in the same sense, but presuming these other motif as simply the same scope but similar properties.

Absolutely Ulfberth!!
The more examples we can find of these moons in different contexts the more we can build a reasonable perspective on their diffusion both geographically and perhaps even chronologically.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim, it truly is hard to determine reasonably accurate dates of adoption of the various symbols and devices from European blades into the talismanic motifs on native blades. We can compellingly presume these are indeed talismanic as in the case of the 'dukari' (paired moons) which are the subject of our study, these were placed in addorsed position while most European blades had single examples of the moon.
Native blacksmiths in the Sahara with the Tuareg, as well as Hausas, were just as in many cultures, viewed with dark suspicions, and their blades seen as possessing 'magic'.

While the sun and stars are included in the astral theme of blades in many cultures and these kinds of motif, it is the moon which seems to carry the most impetus talismanially and with folk religions and superstitions.

I think you are quite right in looking toward the 'hogs back' or sickle marks of European origin as perhaps a lunar symbol. The arc and the dentations indicating reflective rays, whether of that intention in European parlance or not, certainly might be perceived in native cultures as a reflective moon.
While many aspects of such symbolism in native folk religions have to do with phases of the moon (as with Lohr panels on Sudanese blades), the commonly placed use of the duality theme is also often present.

With cosmological symbolism often key in folk religions and superstitions in many native cultures, it is not surprising that they saw the talismanic and magically themed blades of Europe as having imbued powers. Even with blades with alternate themes, inscriptions or marks, they would likely have seen these in the same sense, but presuming these other motif as simply the same scope but similar properties.

Absolutely Ulfberth!!
The more examples we can find of these moons in different contexts the more we can build a reasonable perspective on their diffusion both geographically and perhaps even chronologically.

Hello Jim, and I welcome your post!

I occasionally see references pushing the style or fashion for moons back to the 14th Century coinciding with the thought that European blades were being exported in about the same time frame.. Much of that is somewhat hearsay thus I search for this distinction... It is interesting that in searching for Talismanic work the most compelling evidence today...and still used..comes from Morocco. It is not only the talimanic designs and spells but the person who does the practical work;...The smiths who convey from generation to generation the secret powers of such craft; It is something of a double act with the metal smith, silversmith or metalworker doing the actual work whilst the actual spells are done by the wandering magician folk..written on paper...then you go off to a silver man and it gets done... There is a powerful history of Jewish work there and the wandering and very weird looking magician people who still look like they just stepped out of an ancient history manual on spells and magic...Sort of like apothecaries ..and if they had a pointed hat you would think of Merlin or some sort of Witch or magic man... They are highly respected and very much part of the scenery as you find in all the old souks...quite amazing!
Ibrahiim.

[Jim McDougall]

Very well noted Ibrahiim!! and these talismanic properties in these markings used on sword blades, and they have been used in varied form well into antiquity. It seems such marks are found even on blades into Roman times (I think reference in Oakeshott, 1962) among others in similar simple style.
In central Europe into early times tribal people often used astral symbols, such as Szekelers who used sun and moon as symbols in their material culture.

It also seems that I have seen suggestions of the double addorsed crescent axes as seen often in India and others having symbolic lunar significance.

Magic in various cultures may often be one of the key elements, from the shaman into prehistory into more recent times to the medicine men, witch doctors and associated capacities .Elements of folk religion, pagan and animist traditions to the established mystic and magic properties often held in many of the major religions are widely known. However their esoterica may lead to misunderstanding many aspects of the symbolism.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Very well noted Ibrahiim!! and these talismanic properties in these markings used on sword blades, and they have been used in varied form well into antiquity. It seems such marks are found even on blades into Roman times (I think reference in Oakeshott, 1962) among others in similar simple style.
In central Europe into early times tribal people often used astral symbols, such as Szekelers who used sun and moon as symbols in their material culture.

It also seems that I have seen suggestions of the double addorsed crescent axes as seen often in India and others having symbolic lunar significance.

Magic in various cultures may often be one of the key elements, from the shaman into prehistory into more recent times to the medicine men, witch doctors and associated capacities .Elements of folk religion, pagan and animist traditions to the established mystic and magic properties often held in many of the major religions are widely known. However their esoterica may lead to misunderstanding many aspects of the symbolism.

Indeed Jim and I note on passing the subject of the Evil Eye pointing to the amazing eye built into an English Church at Edmundbyers which is probably Saxon...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Ibrahiim,
Actually that rayed eye represents the Eye of Providence, often used in Christian iconography, and became popular in renaissance iconography.
It represents the Eye of God over mankind.
It is often associated with Freemasonry, and on the US dollar bill it is atop pyramid. The association with the symbol on US currency and that Masonic association is debated.

The 'evil eye' is of course an entirely separate notion, but indeed in many cases associated with the purpose of talismanic imagery, but with blade decoration most typically on ethnographic rather than European blades.

Thank you for keeping this thread current!!!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Ibrahiim,
Actually that rayed eye represents the Eye of Providence, often used in Christian iconography, and became popular in renaissance iconography.
It represents the Eye of God over mankind.
It is often associated with Freemasonry, and on the US dollar bill it is atop pyramid. The association with the symbol on US currency and that Masonic association is debated.

The 'evil eye' is of course an entirely separate notion, but indeed in many cases associated with the purpose of talismanic imagery, but with blade decoration most typically on ethnographic rather than European blades.

Thank you for keeping this thread current!!!

Thanks Jim, Also interesting with the six pointed star ... Regards Ibrahiim...

[DStirk]

Apologies in advance for resurrecting an old thread that may have been resolved elsewhere. I have been researching markings on a collection of Scottish basket-hilted swords that were damaged in a house fire. They belong to my stepfather and I am in the process of stabilizing and conserving them as best I can. This is my first post on the forum, and I hope it is of interest to some here.

One sword in particular is relevant to this thread, as it has the triple fuller/ paired stylized crescent moons, and partial tang features of many Kaskara blades, yet was incorporated into a probable basket-hilt type. I say probable, because the basket hilt was lost in the fire. I am intrigued by the short tang, as this seems like a structural weakness and probable liability when paired with a basket-hilt. Perhaps it was ceremonial, and not intended to be used in anger.

I am also curious about whether the blade was European and intended for African sale, but ended up in Scotland, or whether it could conceivably have ended up in Scotland via Africa. From this thread I have learned that the paired moons on the blade are more likely to be African than European.

Anyway, here are some photos. In the meantime I will ask my stepdad what he knows of the provenance of the blade, and whether he has any pre-fire photos of it with the hilt.

Cheers,
Duncan[IMG]http://[/IMG]