Pata sword with European blade

mariusgmioc · 29th July 2016, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Just saw Marius' post. In my view this is likely a kaskara blade as well, the center fuller resembles many European blades (mostly schiavona types) which found their way into North African entrepots.
It is hard to tell as the upper part of the fuller is obscured by the blade bolster. Most 'firangi' in khanda or pata it seems did not have these single central fullers.

Very interesting thoughts. Thank you!

However, I doubt that my blade is European because it is more flexible/elastic than any European blades I have seen. It also appears to be somehow thinner. Yet it keeps shape extremely well like it is a big leaf spring.

I wonder how flexible is Kubur's blade?!

Kubur · 29th July 2016, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Very interesting thoughts. Thank you!

However, I doubt that my blade is European because it is more flexible/elastic than any European blades I have seen. It also appears to be somehow thinner. Yet it keeps shape extremely well like it is a big leaf spring.

I wonder how flexible is Kubur's blade?!

Kubur's blade is not very flexible (like Kubur in general)
:-)
Like Jim I can see some Maltese crosses... but guys you have to give me something...I can't believe that no one on this fabulous forum can trace the origin of this blade...
Thanks to all past and future

mariusgmioc · 29th July 2016, 11:00 PM

Sorry for not being able to say something more constructive, but those are definitely not Maltese crosses (not even very abstract ones).

I wonder why cannot the blade be plainly Indian?

Maybe we should duplicate this discussion on the Ethnographic Weapons forum.

Jim McDougall · 30th July 2016, 02:53 AM

Kubur, I am sorry I cannot adequately word my posts better. I thought I had described these devices occurring in African swords both in the Sahara and Sudan. These devices in repeated square cartouches are not a motif I have ever seen on European blades, but do seem like they are from Africa, again emphasizing the four leaf flower.

I described that African blades are known to appear in instances in Indian swords, and these are likely to have transmitted via Red Sea trade.

As far as I have ever seen, these blades with central fuller were indeed a form sometimes made in Sudanese regions in the latter 19th century, and these were copied from Solingen blades of this form by Clauberg and Peres for two examples.

They did not made in India, which is why khanda and pata often are more inclined to have imported (including African) blades .

Kubur · 30th July 2016, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Kubur, I am sorry I cannot adequately word my posts better. I thought I had described these devices occurring in African swords both in the Sahara and Sudan.
They did not made in India, which is why khanda and pata often are more inclined to have imported (including African) blades .

Oh I see, thank you Jim. I was thinking that you was talking only about the one posted by Marius. And i have to admit that this blade has some strong similarities with kaskara. Maybe my photos are not good enough, but my blade has nothing to do with local African blades. Plus I never saw any good/ outstanding localy manufactured African blades... Do you really think that Indians were desperate enough to import bad African blades, I have some serious doubt... I take on board the possibility that europeans blades came to India via Africa, by Red sea trade or most likely by Indian ocean trade. I still hope to have other comments...

mariusgmioc · 30th July 2016, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Oh I see, thank you Jim. I was thinking that you was talking only about the one posted by Marius. And i have to admit that this blade has some strong similarities with kaskara. Maybe my photos are not good enough, but my blade has nothing to do with local African blades. Plus I never saw any good/ outstanding localy manufactured African blades... Do you really think that Indians were desperate enough to import bad African blades, I have some serious doubt... I take on board the possibility that europeans blades came to India via Africa, by Red sea trade or most likely by Indian ocean trade. I still hope to have other comments...

I agree with you here. I don't think your blade is of African origin because it is too big and too well made... BUT...
... it is quite possible that the engravings were of African origin, later added (although I am not so sure they cannot be of Indian origin).

Also with regards to my blade, it definitely is not plausible that a blade with such excellent mechanical properties (equivalent to modern highly alloyed spring steel) could have been forged anywhere in Africa.

Jim McDougall · 30th July 2016, 06:48 PM

EXACTLY!!!
I must point out that I did not mean to suggest that Indians were in any way desperate for blades. They were of course fully capable and skilled in producing excellent blades. The reason blades were brought in was due to the colonial circumstances, trade and innovative merchants. Blades which were imported from Europe sometimes including a few British ones here and there, were then used by local artisans in India in remounting local hilts.

These devices of the four petal flower type I have been desperately trying to convey are on African hilts and it seems blades, but I have to find the examples. Please disregard my suggestions on the cross pollination of European/African blades into India as that suggestion does not seem to meet the criteria here. Despite the fact that known African blades are known to have been found on Indian hilts, one cannot discount the possibility that creative arms dealers might have fashioned these. I have had the pata with kaskara type blade for over 40 years. Also in that time period as per Mr. Oakeshott, many kaskara blades were taken from their hilts in England (brought in from Sudanese campaigns) and put in sometimes authentic medieval guards.
I cannot imagine how some of these blades in England might have found their way to India!

Indeed hopefully someone with more knowledge will respond.

I would point out however that the bladesmiths in Africa should not be underestimated. In the latter 19th century and well into 20th, Sudanese artisans used steel from lorry springs and other stock in industrial lots in making blades and other arms components.

29th July 2016, 11:00 PM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Sorry for not being able to say something more constructive, but those are definitely not Maltese crosses (not even very abstract ones). I wonder why cannot the blade be plainly Indian? Maybe we should duplicate this discussion on the Ethnographic Weapons forum.

30th July 2016, 02:53 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Kubur, I am sorry I cannot adequately word my posts better. I thought I had described these devices occurring in African swords both in the Sahara and Sudan. These devices in repeated square cartouches are not a motif I have ever seen on European blades, but do seem like they are from Africa, again emphasizing the four leaf flower. I described that African blades are known to appear in instances in Indian swords, and these are likely to have transmitted via Red Sea trade. As far as I have ever seen, these blades with central fuller were indeed a form sometimes made in Sudanese regions in the latter 19th century, and these were copied from Solingen blades of this form by Clauberg and Peres for two examples. They did not made in India, which is why khanda and pata often are more inclined to have imported (including African) blades .

30th July 2016, 06:48 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	EXACTLY!!! I must point out that I did not mean to suggest that Indians were in any way desperate for blades. They were of course fully capable and skilled in producing excellent blades. The reason blades were brought in was due to the colonial circumstances, trade and innovative merchants. Blades which were imported from Europe sometimes including a few British ones here and there, were then used by local artisans in India in remounting local hilts. These devices of the four petal flower type I have been desperately trying to convey are on African hilts and it seems blades, but I have to find the examples. Please disregard my suggestions on the cross pollination of European/African blades into India as that suggestion does not seem to meet the criteria here. Despite the fact that known African blades are known to have been found on Indian hilts, one cannot discount the possibility that creative arms dealers might have fashioned these. I have had the pata with kaskara type blade for over 40 years. Also in that time period as per Mr. Oakeshott, many kaskara blades were taken from their hilts in England (brought in from Sudanese campaigns) and put in sometimes authentic medieval guards. I cannot imagine how some of these blades in England might have found their way to India! Indeed hopefully someone with more knowledge will respond. I would point out however that the bladesmiths in Africa should not be underestimated. In the latter 19th century and well into 20th, Sudanese artisans used steel from lorry springs and other stock in industrial lots in making blades and other arms components.