Pata sword with European blade

Jim McDougall · 29th July 2016, 07:31 PM

S.

I am inclined to think this blade is 'European' as well. I would note here that while Portuguese colonization was predominant early, there are not that many surviving blades from those early sources in India (that I know of). Naturally there are some examples but the more profound entries seem to have been primarily German or Styrian made blades, which became well known by 17th century.

The earliest Portuguese blades were likely some of the rapier blades which were fitted to khandas with basket hilts (firangi) , in fact it is said that the word firangi actually specified Portuguese. Actually it was far more generic, as in variation it occurs in other languages meaning 'foreign or Frankish(?)'.

The British blades were mostly scorned by Indian merchants, and they were not prevalent anyway, as the relatively limited numbers of British makers were not inclined to export. Most blades were actually German, filtered through English commerce.

Here I would note this blade, which by fullering and general blade character does (to me) seem European, and the squared cartouche triptych with four leaf devices reminds me of such patterns seen in North African hilt motif but occasionally on blades. It seems they are seen on Saharan (Tuareg) hilts as well as possibly on some kaskara.
While it is tempting to see these squares as 'Maltese crosses', they also are seen as four leaf patterns. Most such devices seem to represent the four cardinal directions in native symbolism.

There was an apparent degree of cross pollination of African blades to India, and less often some European blades from India into Africa. The Red Sea trade machine accounts for this in my opinion.
I have seen tulwar hilts with blades having profuse thuluth obviously from Mahdist period kaskara .....and I had a pata which had a kaskara blade with the cosmologic motif and central triple fullers.

Conversely, I have seen kaskara with single edged Italian blades with old markings suggesting probably from firangi sources in India.

Just my thoughts.

Jim McDougall · 29th July 2016, 07:36 PM

Just saw Marius' post. In my view this is likely a kaskara blade as well, the center fuller resembles many European blades (mostly schiavona types) which found their way into North African entrepots.
It is hard to tell as the upper part of the fuller is obscured by the blade bolster. Most 'firangi' in khanda or pata it seems did not have these single central fullers.

mariusgmioc · 29th July 2016, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Just saw Marius' post. In my view this is likely a kaskara blade as well, the center fuller resembles many European blades (mostly schiavona types) which found their way into North African entrepots.
It is hard to tell as the upper part of the fuller is obscured by the blade bolster. Most 'firangi' in khanda or pata it seems did not have these single central fullers.

Very interesting thoughts. Thank you!

However, I doubt that my blade is European because it is more flexible/elastic than any European blades I have seen. It also appears to be somehow thinner. Yet it keeps shape extremely well like it is a big leaf spring.

I wonder how flexible is Kubur's blade?!

Kubur · 29th July 2016, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Very interesting thoughts. Thank you!

However, I doubt that my blade is European because it is more flexible/elastic than any European blades I have seen. It also appears to be somehow thinner. Yet it keeps shape extremely well like it is a big leaf spring.

I wonder how flexible is Kubur's blade?!

Kubur's blade is not very flexible (like Kubur in general)
:-)
Like Jim I can see some Maltese crosses... but guys you have to give me something...I can't believe that no one on this fabulous forum can trace the origin of this blade...
Thanks to all past and future

mariusgmioc · 29th July 2016, 11:00 PM

Sorry for not being able to say something more constructive, but those are definitely not Maltese crosses (not even very abstract ones).

I wonder why cannot the blade be plainly Indian?

Maybe we should duplicate this discussion on the Ethnographic Weapons forum.

Jim McDougall · 30th July 2016, 02:53 AM

Kubur, I am sorry I cannot adequately word my posts better. I thought I had described these devices occurring in African swords both in the Sahara and Sudan. These devices in repeated square cartouches are not a motif I have ever seen on European blades, but do seem like they are from Africa, again emphasizing the four leaf flower.

I described that African blades are known to appear in instances in Indian swords, and these are likely to have transmitted via Red Sea trade.

As far as I have ever seen, these blades with central fuller were indeed a form sometimes made in Sudanese regions in the latter 19th century, and these were copied from Solingen blades of this form by Clauberg and Peres for two examples.

They did not made in India, which is why khanda and pata often are more inclined to have imported (including African) blades .

Kubur · 30th July 2016, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Kubur, I am sorry I cannot adequately word my posts better. I thought I had described these devices occurring in African swords both in the Sahara and Sudan.
They did not made in India, which is why khanda and pata often are more inclined to have imported (including African) blades .

Oh I see, thank you Jim. I was thinking that you was talking only about the one posted by Marius. And i have to admit that this blade has some strong similarities with kaskara. Maybe my photos are not good enough, but my blade has nothing to do with local African blades. Plus I never saw any good/ outstanding localy manufactured African blades... Do you really think that Indians were desperate enough to import bad African blades, I have some serious doubt... I take on board the possibility that europeans blades came to India via Africa, by Red sea trade or most likely by Indian ocean trade. I still hope to have other comments...

29th July 2016, 07:31 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	S. I am inclined to think this blade is 'European' as well. I would note here that while Portuguese colonization was predominant early, there are not that many surviving blades from those early sources in India (that I know of). Naturally there are some examples but the more profound entries seem to have been primarily German or Styrian made blades, which became well known by 17th century. The earliest Portuguese blades were likely some of the rapier blades which were fitted to khandas with basket hilts (firangi) , in fact it is said that the word firangi actually specified Portuguese. Actually it was far more generic, as in variation it occurs in other languages meaning 'foreign or Frankish(?)'. The British blades were mostly scorned by Indian merchants, and they were not prevalent anyway, as the relatively limited numbers of British makers were not inclined to export. Most blades were actually German, filtered through English commerce. Here I would note this blade, which by fullering and general blade character does (to me) seem European, and the squared cartouche triptych with four leaf devices reminds me of such patterns seen in North African hilt motif but occasionally on blades. It seems they are seen on Saharan (Tuareg) hilts as well as possibly on some kaskara. While it is tempting to see these squares as 'Maltese crosses', they also are seen as four leaf patterns. Most such devices seem to represent the four cardinal directions in native symbolism. There was an apparent degree of cross pollination of African blades to India, and less often some European blades from India into Africa. The Red Sea trade machine accounts for this in my opinion. I have seen tulwar hilts with blades having profuse thuluth obviously from Mahdist period kaskara .....and I had a pata which had a kaskara blade with the cosmologic motif and central triple fullers. Conversely, I have seen kaskara with single edged Italian blades with old markings suggesting probably from firangi sources in India. Just my thoughts.

29th July 2016, 07:36 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Just saw Marius' post. In my view this is likely a kaskara blade as well, the center fuller resembles many European blades (mostly schiavona types) which found their way into North African entrepots. It is hard to tell as the upper part of the fuller is obscured by the blade bolster. Most 'firangi' in khanda or pata it seems did not have these single central fullers.

29th July 2016, 11:00 PM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Sorry for not being able to say something more constructive, but those are definitely not Maltese crosses (not even very abstract ones). I wonder why cannot the blade be plainly Indian? Maybe we should duplicate this discussion on the Ethnographic Weapons forum.

30th July 2016, 02:53 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Kubur, I am sorry I cannot adequately word my posts better. I thought I had described these devices occurring in African swords both in the Sahara and Sudan. These devices in repeated square cartouches are not a motif I have ever seen on European blades, but do seem like they are from Africa, again emphasizing the four leaf flower. I described that African blades are known to appear in instances in Indian swords, and these are likely to have transmitted via Red Sea trade. As far as I have ever seen, these blades with central fuller were indeed a form sometimes made in Sudanese regions in the latter 19th century, and these were copied from Solingen blades of this form by Clauberg and Peres for two examples. They did not made in India, which is why khanda and pata often are more inclined to have imported (including African) blades .