Pata sword with European blade

fernando · 29th July 2016, 11:53 AM

Don't pay much notice to what i say but, the decoration in the ricasso doesn't look European to me... at least not Portuguese

.
Is it flexible ?

mariusgmioc · 29th July 2016, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Is it flexible ?

Hello Fernando,

May I know why are you asking?

I also have a similar Patah but with a different blade that is quite flexible (much more flexible than any of the other blades I have).

While I am by no means very knowledgeable on this subject, I agree with you that the decorations on the ricasso don't look European.

Jim McDougall · 30th July 2016, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello Fernando,

May I know why are you asking?

I also have a similar Patah but with a different blade that is quite flexible (much more flexible than any of the other blades I have).

While I am by no means very knowledgeable on this subject, I agree with you that the decorations on the ricasso don't look European.

Just to be more specific Marius.
This pata, as I noted, has a central fuller which is very much like European blades, most notably schiavona, which often were Solingen made. These central fuller blades were sometimes known to be of African production, however most often imported into Sudan in 1870s-80s (Suakin was one Red Sea entrepot). Peres and Clauberg were noted makers that come to mind. If this blade is not so marked it might be a blank from Solingen.

It is not Indian made .....question, why would the langet/bolster be riveted into the fuller? I am under the impression this might compromise the blade if drilled through. Perhaps that is why these central fuller blades might not be chosen by Indian armourer? or ?

Just asking for your valued opinion, and trying to offer helpful suggestions pending more useful responses.

mariusgmioc · 31st July 2016, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Just to be more specific Marius.
This pata, as I noted, has a central fuller which is very much like European blades, most notably schiavona, which often were Solingen made. These central fuller blades were sometimes known to be of African production, however most often imported into Sudan in 1870s-80s (Suakin was one Red Sea entrepot). Peres and Clauberg were noted makers that come to mind. If this blade is not so marked it might be a blank from Solingen.

It is not Indian made .....question, why would the langet/bolster be riveted into the fuller? I am under the impression this might compromise the blade if drilled through. Perhaps that is why these central fuller blades might not be chosen by Indian armourer? or ?

Just asking for your valued opinion, and trying to offer helpful suggestions pending more useful responses.

Thank you Jim for your thoughts!

My blade can definitely be of European origin as European bladesmiths definitely had the knowledge to produce blades with such properties.

But then, if the blade was made in Europe, for what type of sword was it made because it would be too thin and elastic for any type of European sword I know?! It would only be suitable for an Indian Pata, that employs a very particular fighting style where a very elastic blade is required.

PS: Here is a link to an older thread about a Pata with a blade very similar to mine, and apparently equally elastic:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=92078

fernando · 31st July 2016, 12:15 PM

We can see that the decoration of Kubur's blade goes well into the bolsters. Could it be that the blade was dismounted to have the decoration made or was already decorated before mounting ?
The pronounced central fuller was alredy there from the beginning ... no doubt. Could it be that the side grooves were only made together with the ricasso decoration ?
Is it my impression or the Indian blades in patas are the ones that are flexible and not the European ones; starting by considering that European blades were made for 'normal' swords and not necessarily a product expressly developed for patas.
We hear in the grape vines that blades in patas are largely of European origin; couldn't this be a matter of fashion or acquired culture rather than a matter of necessity ... or quality ?

mariusgmioc · 31st July 2016, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Is it my impression or the Indian blades in patas are the ones that are flexible and not the European ones; starting by considering that European blades were made for 'normal' swords and not necessarily a product expressly developed for patas.
We hear in the grape vines that blades in patas are largely of European origin; couldn't this be a matter of fashion or acquired culture rather than a matter of necessity ... or quality ?

Exactly my point!

In the photo below, you can see how thin the blade is, which is very unlike any European blade I know.

The same goes for the Pata in the link I provided above. Thin, very elastic blade, most likely unsuitable for any other sword but specifically suited for the fighting style with the Pata, where ample circular blows are delivered, and where you don't want the blade to be stopped abruptly even when hitting a shield, as such an abrupt stop may throw you off-guard and even break your arm.

fernando · 31st July 2016, 03:37 PM

Posts are being pouring in this same subject in both Ethno and European fora, which somehow disperses discussion efforts.
So if you don't mind, Kubur, we will merge both threads into the Ethno section as, despite the origin of your pata blade is in doubt, the subject is Indian swords.

Jim McDougall · 29th July 2016, 07:31 PM

S.

I am inclined to think this blade is 'European' as well. I would note here that while Portuguese colonization was predominant early, there are not that many surviving blades from those early sources in India (that I know of). Naturally there are some examples but the more profound entries seem to have been primarily German or Styrian made blades, which became well known by 17th century.

The earliest Portuguese blades were likely some of the rapier blades which were fitted to khandas with basket hilts (firangi) , in fact it is said that the word firangi actually specified Portuguese. Actually it was far more generic, as in variation it occurs in other languages meaning 'foreign or Frankish(?)'.

The British blades were mostly scorned by Indian merchants, and they were not prevalent anyway, as the relatively limited numbers of British makers were not inclined to export. Most blades were actually German, filtered through English commerce.

Here I would note this blade, which by fullering and general blade character does (to me) seem European, and the squared cartouche triptych with four leaf devices reminds me of such patterns seen in North African hilt motif but occasionally on blades. It seems they are seen on Saharan (Tuareg) hilts as well as possibly on some kaskara.
While it is tempting to see these squares as 'Maltese crosses', they also are seen as four leaf patterns. Most such devices seem to represent the four cardinal directions in native symbolism.

There was an apparent degree of cross pollination of African blades to India, and less often some European blades from India into Africa. The Red Sea trade machine accounts for this in my opinion.
I have seen tulwar hilts with blades having profuse thuluth obviously from Mahdist period kaskara .....and I had a pata which had a kaskara blade with the cosmologic motif and central triple fullers.

Conversely, I have seen kaskara with single edged Italian blades with old markings suggesting probably from firangi sources in India.

Just my thoughts.

Jim McDougall · 29th July 2016, 07:36 PM

Just saw Marius' post. In my view this is likely a kaskara blade as well, the center fuller resembles many European blades (mostly schiavona types) which found their way into North African entrepots.
It is hard to tell as the upper part of the fuller is obscured by the blade bolster. Most 'firangi' in khanda or pata it seems did not have these single central fullers.

mariusgmioc · 29th July 2016, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Just saw Marius' post. In my view this is likely a kaskara blade as well, the center fuller resembles many European blades (mostly schiavona types) which found their way into North African entrepots.
It is hard to tell as the upper part of the fuller is obscured by the blade bolster. Most 'firangi' in khanda or pata it seems did not have these single central fullers.

Very interesting thoughts. Thank you!

However, I doubt that my blade is European because it is more flexible/elastic than any European blades I have seen. It also appears to be somehow thinner. Yet it keeps shape extremely well like it is a big leaf spring.

I wonder how flexible is Kubur's blade?!

Kubur · 29th July 2016, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Very interesting thoughts. Thank you!

However, I doubt that my blade is European because it is more flexible/elastic than any European blades I have seen. It also appears to be somehow thinner. Yet it keeps shape extremely well like it is a big leaf spring.

I wonder how flexible is Kubur's blade?!

Kubur's blade is not very flexible (like Kubur in general)
:-)
Like Jim I can see some Maltese crosses... but guys you have to give me something...I can't believe that no one on this fabulous forum can trace the origin of this blade...
Thanks to all past and future

mariusgmioc · 29th July 2016, 11:00 PM

Sorry for not being able to say something more constructive, but those are definitely not Maltese crosses (not even very abstract ones).

I wonder why cannot the blade be plainly Indian?

Maybe we should duplicate this discussion on the Ethnographic Weapons forum.

Jim McDougall · 30th July 2016, 02:53 AM

Kubur, I am sorry I cannot adequately word my posts better. I thought I had described these devices occurring in African swords both in the Sahara and Sudan. These devices in repeated square cartouches are not a motif I have ever seen on European blades, but do seem like they are from Africa, again emphasizing the four leaf flower.

I described that African blades are known to appear in instances in Indian swords, and these are likely to have transmitted via Red Sea trade.

As far as I have ever seen, these blades with central fuller were indeed a form sometimes made in Sudanese regions in the latter 19th century, and these were copied from Solingen blades of this form by Clauberg and Peres for two examples.

They did not made in India, which is why khanda and pata often are more inclined to have imported (including African) blades .

31st July 2016, 12:15 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Silly questions We can see that the decoration of Kubur's blade goes well into the bolsters. Could it be that the blade was dismounted to have the decoration made or was already decorated before mounting ? The pronounced central fuller was alredy there from the beginning ... no doubt. Could it be that the side grooves were only made together with the ricasso decoration ? Is it my impression or the Indian blades in patas are the ones that are flexible and not the European ones; starting by considering that European blades were made for 'normal' swords and not necessarily a product expressly developed for patas. We hear in the grape vines that blades in patas are largely of European origin; couldn't this be a matter of fashion or acquired culture rather than a matter of necessity ... or quality ?

29th July 2016, 11:53 AM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Don't pay much notice to what i say but, the decoration in the ricasso doesn't look European to me... at least not Portuguese . Is it flexible ?

31st July 2016, 03:37 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Posts are being pouring in this same subject in both Ethno and European fora, which somehow disperses discussion efforts. So if you don't mind, Kubur, we will merge both threads into the Ethno section as, despite the origin of your pata blade is in doubt, the subject is Indian swords.

29th July 2016, 07:31 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	S. I am inclined to think this blade is 'European' as well. I would note here that while Portuguese colonization was predominant early, there are not that many surviving blades from those early sources in India (that I know of). Naturally there are some examples but the more profound entries seem to have been primarily German or Styrian made blades, which became well known by 17th century. The earliest Portuguese blades were likely some of the rapier blades which were fitted to khandas with basket hilts (firangi) , in fact it is said that the word firangi actually specified Portuguese. Actually it was far more generic, as in variation it occurs in other languages meaning 'foreign or Frankish(?)'. The British blades were mostly scorned by Indian merchants, and they were not prevalent anyway, as the relatively limited numbers of British makers were not inclined to export. Most blades were actually German, filtered through English commerce. Here I would note this blade, which by fullering and general blade character does (to me) seem European, and the squared cartouche triptych with four leaf devices reminds me of such patterns seen in North African hilt motif but occasionally on blades. It seems they are seen on Saharan (Tuareg) hilts as well as possibly on some kaskara. While it is tempting to see these squares as 'Maltese crosses', they also are seen as four leaf patterns. Most such devices seem to represent the four cardinal directions in native symbolism. There was an apparent degree of cross pollination of African blades to India, and less often some European blades from India into Africa. The Red Sea trade machine accounts for this in my opinion. I have seen tulwar hilts with blades having profuse thuluth obviously from Mahdist period kaskara .....and I had a pata which had a kaskara blade with the cosmologic motif and central triple fullers. Conversely, I have seen kaskara with single edged Italian blades with old markings suggesting probably from firangi sources in India. Just my thoughts.

29th July 2016, 07:36 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Just saw Marius' post. In my view this is likely a kaskara blade as well, the center fuller resembles many European blades (mostly schiavona types) which found their way into North African entrepots. It is hard to tell as the upper part of the fuller is obscured by the blade bolster. Most 'firangi' in khanda or pata it seems did not have these single central fullers.

29th July 2016, 11:00 PM	#12
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Sorry for not being able to say something more constructive, but those are definitely not Maltese crosses (not even very abstract ones). I wonder why cannot the blade be plainly Indian? Maybe we should duplicate this discussion on the Ethnographic Weapons forum.

30th July 2016, 02:53 AM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Kubur, I am sorry I cannot adequately word my posts better. I thought I had described these devices occurring in African swords both in the Sahara and Sudan. These devices in repeated square cartouches are not a motif I have ever seen on European blades, but do seem like they are from Africa, again emphasizing the four leaf flower. I described that African blades are known to appear in instances in Indian swords, and these are likely to have transmitted via Red Sea trade. As far as I have ever seen, these blades with central fuller were indeed a form sometimes made in Sudanese regions in the latter 19th century, and these were copied from Solingen blades of this form by Clauberg and Peres for two examples. They did not made in India, which is why khanda and pata often are more inclined to have imported (including African) blades .