Pata sword with European blade

Battara · 28th July 2016, 11:45 PM

Well.........just a thought: both Portuguese and British were there in the 17th century.

2 places to start.

Another thought would be to post also in the European section since you are asking about the European blade.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th July 2016, 02:17 AM

Originally Posted by estcrh
If you have not already read this essay you should, it is from the book titled Sultans of the South: Arts of India's Deccan Courts, 1323-1687 By Navina Najat Haidar, Marika Sardar, 2011.

"Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries: their manufacture and the influence of European imports" by Robert Elgood.

https://books.google.com/books?id=i...epage&q&f=false

mariusgmioc · 30th July 2016, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Another thought would be to post also in the European section since you are asking about the European blade.

That's where it was originally posted.

Jens Nordlunde · 30th July 2016, 01:41 PM

Search for "Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries" on Google, go to the MET's homepage, and you can download the book (I think) as a PDF file.

Maybe the blade is European, but I am not convinced, as I think there are pointers towards India. It could also be European and decorated later in India - it is not easy to tell from a picture.

Kubur · 30th July 2016, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Search for "Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries" on Google, go to the MET's homepage, and you can download the book (I think) as a PDF file.

Thank you all for the reference! and the link!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

It could also be European and decorated later in India - it is not easy to tell from a picture.

Why not, but the decoration is going right under the rivets and the pata.

mariusgmioc · 31st July 2016, 12:56 PM

My speculation is that many Pata were indeed fitted with European blades, but even more so were fitted with locally made Indian blades that sometimes imitated the European design.

The fighting style with the Pata involves ample circular movements (of the whole arm and body) that require particularly flexible blades. A Pata swordsman will practically spin around waving the blade in circular moves and create a wide perimeter around him where any opponent would be at risk of being struck. If the blade is not flexible enough, a shield or even a stick can not only block the blow, but can easily throw the wielder off-balance or even break his arm. Therefore, the blade must necessarily be very elastic so it can bounce off any rigid parrying device and dissipate the shock of the parry.

While some European blades may be elastic just about enough to provide some functionality to the Pata, most of them were way too rigid to be of practical use in a Pata mount.

And I particularly doubt that any European swordsmith would bother to produce dedicated Pata blades for export to India, since even in India Pata wasn't very widely used, and since India itself didn't see such a dramatic shortage of native capable swordsmiths.

I am attaching some photos of a Pata I have, where one can easily see how thin the blade is (last photo).

Also at the link below, you can see a Pata with a very similar, very thin and elastic blade.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=92078

Jens Nordlunde · 31st July 2016, 01:50 PM

I have two pata's and both have very flexible blades. The chiselled one is from south India 16th to arely 17th century, and the other one has a gauntlet of wootz and is from north India 17th to early 18th century.

mariusgmioc · 31st July 2016, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I have two pata's and both have very flexible blades. The chiselled one is from south India 16th to arely 17th century, and the other one has a gauntlet of wootz and is from north India 17th to early 18th century.

Hi Jens,

To me, if they are very flexible, it means they were specifically designed for Patas, and are of Indian workmanship.

Marius

PS: Yet, the second one has what might be taken for European engravings... that go well under the armatures... like with Kubur's blade! But for what European (or otherwise) type of sword other than a Pata would such a flexible blade be suitable for?!

PPS: Magnificent and very interesting examples.

fernando · 31st July 2016, 03:23 PM

Beautiful examples.
Are you familiar with that mark, Jens ?

.

31st July 2016, 12:56 PM	#6
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	My speculation is that many Pata were indeed fitted with European blades, but even more so were fitted with locally made Indian blades that sometimes imitated the European design. The fighting style with the Pata involves ample circular movements (of the whole arm and body) that require particularly flexible blades. A Pata swordsman will practically spin around waving the blade in circular moves and create a wide perimeter around him where any opponent would be at risk of being struck. If the blade is not flexible enough, a shield or even a stick can not only block the blow, but can easily throw the wielder off-balance or even break his arm. Therefore, the blade must necessarily be very elastic so it can bounce off any rigid parrying device and dissipate the shock of the parry. While some European blades may be elastic just about enough to provide some functionality to the Pata, most of them were way too rigid to be of practical use in a Pata mount. And I particularly doubt that any European swordsmith would bother to produce dedicated Pata blades for export to India, since even in India Pata wasn't very widely used, and since India itself didn't see such a dramatic shortage of native capable swordsmiths. I am attaching some photos of a Pata I have, where one can easily see how thin the blade is (last photo). Also at the link below, you can see a Pata with a very similar, very thin and elastic blade. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=92078 Attached Images Last edited by mariusgmioc; 31st July 2016 at 06:20 PM.

31st July 2016, 01:50 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I have two pata's and both have very flexible blades. The chiselled one is from south India 16th to arely 17th century, and the other one has a gauntlet of wootz and is from north India 17th to early 18th century. Attached Images

31st July 2016, 03:23 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Beautiful examples. Are you familiar with that mark, Jens ? . Attached Images

28th July 2016, 11:45 PM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Well.........just a thought: both Portuguese and British were there in the 17th century. 2 places to start. Another thought would be to post also in the European section since you are asking about the European blade.

30th July 2016, 02:17 AM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Originally Posted by estcrh If you have not already read this essay you should, it is from the book titled Sultans of the South: Arts of India's Deccan Courts, 1323-1687 By Navina Najat Haidar, Marika Sardar, 2011. "Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries: their manufacture and the influence of European imports" by Robert Elgood. https://books.google.com/books?id=i...epage&q&f=false

30th July 2016, 01:41 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Search for "Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries" on Google, go to the MET's homepage, and you can download the book (I think) as a PDF file. Maybe the blade is European, but I am not convinced, as I think there are pointers towards India. It could also be European and decorated later in India - it is not easy to tell from a picture.