I respect the rules of the forum

Gavin Nugent · 28th July 2016, 10:18 AM

Have you checked for a knife attached to the pommel, there often are....try to unscrew it.

Gavin

Jim McDougall · 28th July 2016, 04:23 PM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=zaghnal

My apologies Marcus, I misunderstood your comments and did not realize they were rhetorical.

As the title was directed at forum rules, I wanted to address the matter in a general sense concerning these situations, and meant the references regarding search features etc. to offer assistance to benefit other readers here who are not quite as familiar with our rules and scope.

You are a seasoned contributor here, and of course I know you are quite familiar with search features etc.

Some good entries so far, and I wanted to add the link above to a 2009 discussion which was remarkably comprehensive on these. It also well illustrates, to those reading, just how much data is within our archives!

What I drew from this discussion notes that these 'zaghnal' were it seems well known with the Rajputs, and are known as a weapon form early, in fact shown in the Ain I Akbari (as noted in "Islamic Arms and Armor of Mughal India", Dr. S. Haider, Lahore, 1991; p.235 and plate #30, xii, p24).
It seems they were primarily an armour breaking weapon, against helmets and armor as there are usually no cutting edges, just reinforced point.

The reference to the elephant I imagine goes to another hafted weapon of these regions, the bhuj, which is essentially a hafted knife and typically has an elephant head at the base of the blade.

There are references to these hafted weapons (known collectively as 'dab' in Rajasthan) being used in hamstringing, however that purpose would most likely be to the bhuj rather than the armor piercing zaghnol.

In comments it is noted that examples similar to that posted here by Marcus are most probably 19th to early 20th c. Traditional weapons were still used by cavalry in India into the 1930s.

Good tip by Gav, see if there is a knife in the handle. Also, these 19th-20th examples are typically assembled by screw systems.

Marcus · 28th July 2016, 05:04 PM

Looking at examples previously sold on Oriental arms 3 out of 6 have an elephant on the back side of the spike. This piece has a peg that looks as though there was once something there. The seller made reference to a missing elephant. I have a friend who might cast me a replacement. I look forward to receiving the item in a few days. I suspect the vendor would have checked for a dagger. I can confirm that.

Jim McDougall · 28th July 2016, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus

Looking at examples previously sold on Oriental arms 3 out of 6 have an elephant on the back side of the spike. This piece has a peg that looks as though there was once something there. The seller made reference to a missing elephant. I have a friend who might cast me a replacement. I look forward to receiving the item in a few days. I suspect the vendor would have checked for a dagger. I can confirm that.

Good note Marcus, and in reviewing a number of these zaghnal, I did notice that many did have an elephant at the base, so I see what you mean.
What is curious is that the bhuj, which is like a dagger with an extremely long handle becoming a haft, these invariably have the elephant head at the junction of blade and haft. This led to the vernacular term 'elephant knife' used for them.
It begs the question of the relationship between these hafted weapons and more on the significance of the elephant symbolically.

28th July 2016, 04:23 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=zaghnal My apologies Marcus, I misunderstood your comments and did not realize they were rhetorical. As the title was directed at forum rules, I wanted to address the matter in a general sense concerning these situations, and meant the references regarding search features etc. to offer assistance to benefit other readers here who are not quite as familiar with our rules and scope. You are a seasoned contributor here, and of course I know you are quite familiar with search features etc. Some good entries so far, and I wanted to add the link above to a 2009 discussion which was remarkably comprehensive on these. It also well illustrates, to those reading, just how much data is within our archives! What I drew from this discussion notes that these 'zaghnal' were it seems well known with the Rajputs, and are known as a weapon form early, in fact shown in the Ain I Akbari (as noted in "Islamic Arms and Armor of Mughal India", Dr. S. Haider, Lahore, 1991; p.235 and plate #30, xii, p24). It seems they were primarily an armour breaking weapon, against helmets and armor as there are usually no cutting edges, just reinforced point. The reference to the elephant I imagine goes to another hafted weapon of these regions, the bhuj, which is essentially a hafted knife and typically has an elephant head at the base of the blade. There are references to these hafted weapons (known collectively as 'dab' in Rajasthan) being used in hamstringing, however that purpose would most likely be to the bhuj rather than the armor piercing zaghnol. In comments it is noted that examples similar to that posted here by Marcus are most probably 19th to early 20th c. Traditional weapons were still used by cavalry in India into the 1930s. Good tip by Gav, see if there is a knife in the handle. Also, these 19th-20th examples are typically assembled by screw systems. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 28th July 2016 at 04:55 PM.

28th July 2016, 10:18 AM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Have you checked for a knife attached to the pommel, there often are....try to unscrew it. Gavin

28th July 2016, 05:04 PM	#3
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	elephants Looking at examples previously sold on Oriental arms 3 out of 6 have an elephant on the back side of the spike. This piece has a peg that looks as though there was once something there. The seller made reference to a missing elephant. I have a friend who might cast me a replacement. I look forward to receiving the item in a few days. I suspect the vendor would have checked for a dagger. I can confirm that.