Strange Yataghan

ham · 8th February 2006, 07:03 PM

Nicely done all. But who buys the beer?

Ham

Tim Simmons · 8th February 2006, 07:07 PM

Wolviex! I am drinking a very nice one right now called ZYWIEC 5.6% not bad for lager beer

.

wolviex · 10th February 2006, 07:53 AM

Jim!
There is one thing I would like to solve to avoid some misunderstanding. I put CHINESE in quotes because this is style which we are matching as such. I'm not quite sure if it was made as "chinese" in 18th century, how far our European ancestors were familiar with so exotic weapons from far far east. Maybe it's just a simple convergence of shapes? So the question is, do we have 18th c. chinese weapons that could be a pattern for these hangers, and were they know in Europe?
Eastern fashion, I thought about, is appearing in yataghan blades, fitted to European hangers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Wolviex! I am drinking a very nice one right now called ZYWIEC 5.6% not bad for lager beer

.

No problem, I could send it to you as priority, but I suppose you're not the only one who likes it and before it reach you some postman will be induced and will drink it

Jim McDougall · 11th February 2006, 12:55 AM

Hi Jeff,
Thank you very much for your courtesy, and I completely agree, further examination hands on and research would provide more conclusive assessment.
I'm not too sure about 'bitters' and am pretty sure here in Texas not many know about them 'bitters'...but around here 'long necks' , especially Lone Star is what its all about!!!

yee hah!!

Hi Michal,
I knew you meant 'Chinese' as a description of the type hilts we had been describing since that suggestion was used in the early posts on this thread.
I think the guard itself was what brought this about as it has profound similarity to the guards well known on many Chinese jian, however the crossguard on our example is clearly very highly stylized.

The extensive trade with the Far East by the 18th century, especially that carried out by the East India Companies of the major powers, brought the commodities as well as considerable material culture to Europe and England.
I think one interesting use of 'Oriental' influence appearing on European swords were the smallswords which have become termed "Tonquinese" as this area, now of course Viet Nam, was thought their original source. In "The Smallsword in England" ( J.D.Aylward, 1945, pp.57,58) the author describes the decoration on these hilts as of black 'shakudo' bronze and that while these thought to have come from the Dutch factory in Tonquin, they were in fact most likely produced in a Dutch factory at Peking c.1710-1750. It is further noted that the Dutch brought Chinese workmen in hilts to Europe who worked in Amsterdam, as well as associated with Solingen (pertaining to the use of the blades of course). It is known that certain Chinese influences expanded to other weapon motif, as certain chinoiserie hilts reflected scenes including distinct Chinese architecture.

I think these influences would have easily extended throughout Europe via the constant trade diffusion of blades via Solingen, and other key centers.
It seems I have seen examples of certain Chinese swords or heavily influenced examples of them even in Transylvanian armouries, but cannot recall exactly when these were discussed (Radu any help on this? ).

It seems the more I learn about the incredibly vast trade networks, the more I realize what a small world it really was, even then!

Thanks again for the beautiful examples you posted of these distinctly influenced hangers!!

All the best,
Jim

Valjhun · 12th February 2006, 06:04 PM

Gentlemen,

Many thanks to all of you for that interesting debate. I learned a lot from it and I've decided not to buy that sword.

Jens Nordlunde · 8th February 2006, 07:11 PM

Wolviex, thank you for an excelent lecture, and thank you for exelent pictures

.

Jens

Jeff D · 9th February 2006, 04:05 AM

Thank You Michal for the excellent dissertation and pictures, and to everyone else for the information on these interesting swords. I will be honest and admit I had never seen these before this thread.

thanks all
Jeff

P.S. I will provide the pints if any of you ever come out this way. Sorry Tim but bitters are almost impossible to get in N.A., at least in Western Canada.

Jim McDougall · 10th February 2006, 12:07 AM

I must apologize for delay in responding. I just wanted to thank Wolviex for the outstanding post and illustrations supporting the observations on the Chinese motif presence on European hunting hangers of the 18th century, beautifully done!!! I would like to note also that in reviewing some Austrian sabres of the 18th century they also had openings pierced in similar location on the upper grip, presumably for lanyard or sabre knot.

Jeff, I always admire your keen assessments of weapon 'forensics'. You have noted very astutely some important factors that suggest inconsistancy in this weapon. Since the components conform essentially to those seen on known sword examples of this period, I am still inclined to presume them original to the sword, although it would seem there has been rather inept attempt at cleaning the weapon. I also think the weapon was dismantled to clean the blade and guard, although the ferrule, thoroughly corroded, was of course not cleanable. Since it is obviously rusted through, it must have cracked in reassembly. The darkened deep pitting areas on the guard seem to be left from the overcleaning. If I am not mistaken, inconsistancies in corrosion or patination are often due to different metal composition or quality, as well as the manner of production of the metal of the components.The blade itself, rather than being a 'yataghan' blade, is of a form known to exist on these 'military' hangers.

While I would defer final judgement on the integrity of this example to hands on examination and to those much more experienced on appraisals, these are my observations based on what can be seen in the photos.

Best regards,
Jim

Jeff D · 10th February 2006, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Since the components conform essentially to those seen on known sword examples of this period, I am still inclined to presume them original to the sword, although it would seem there has been rather inept attempt at cleaning the weapon. I also think the weapon was dismantled to clean the blade and guard, although the ferrule, thoroughly corroded, was of course not cleanable. Since it is obviously rusted through, it must have cracked in reassembly. The darkened deep pitting areas on the guard seem to be left from the overcleaning. If I am not mistaken, inconsistancies in corrosion or patination are often due to different metal composition or quality, as well as the manner of production of the metal of the components.The blade itself, rather than being a 'yataghan' blade, is of a form known to exist on these 'military' hangers.

Hi Jim,

I think unless more evidence is presented on this one, your final assesment stands. Now more importantly, does Lone Star make a bitter

.

All the Best
Jeff

8th February 2006, 07:11 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Wolviex, thank you for an excelent lecture, and thank you for exelent pictures. Jens

8th February 2006, 07:03 PM	#1
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Nicely done all. But who buys the beer? Ham

8th February 2006, 07:07 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Wolviex! I am drinking a very nice one right now called ZYWIEC 5.6% not bad for lager beer .

11th February 2006, 12:55 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Jeff, Thank you very much for your courtesy, and I completely agree, further examination hands on and research would provide more conclusive assessment. I'm not too sure about 'bitters' and am pretty sure here in Texas not many know about them 'bitters'...but around here 'long necks' , especially Lone Star is what its all about!!! yee hah!! Hi Michal, I knew you meant 'Chinese' as a description of the type hilts we had been describing since that suggestion was used in the early posts on this thread. I think the guard itself was what brought this about as it has profound similarity to the guards well known on many Chinese jian, however the crossguard on our example is clearly very highly stylized. The extensive trade with the Far East by the 18th century, especially that carried out by the East India Companies of the major powers, brought the commodities as well as considerable material culture to Europe and England. I think one interesting use of 'Oriental' influence appearing on European swords were the smallswords which have become termed "Tonquinese" as this area, now of course Viet Nam, was thought their original source. In "The Smallsword in England" ( J.D.Aylward, 1945, pp.57,58) the author describes the decoration on these hilts as of black 'shakudo' bronze and that while these thought to have come from the Dutch factory in Tonquin, they were in fact most likely produced in a Dutch factory at Peking c.1710-1750. It is further noted that the Dutch brought Chinese workmen in hilts to Europe who worked in Amsterdam, as well as associated with Solingen (pertaining to the use of the blades of course). It is known that certain Chinese influences expanded to other weapon motif, as certain chinoiserie hilts reflected scenes including distinct Chinese architecture. I think these influences would have easily extended throughout Europe via the constant trade diffusion of blades via Solingen, and other key centers. It seems I have seen examples of certain Chinese swords or heavily influenced examples of them even in Transylvanian armouries, but cannot recall exactly when these were discussed (Radu any help on this? ). It seems the more I learn about the incredibly vast trade networks, the more I realize what a small world it really was, even then! Thanks again for the beautiful examples you posted of these distinctly influenced hangers!! All the best, Jim

12th February 2006, 06:04 PM	#5
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Gentlemen, Many thanks to all of you for that interesting debate. I learned a lot from it and I've decided not to buy that sword.

9th February 2006, 04:05 AM	#7
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Thank You Michal for the excellent dissertation and pictures, and to everyone else for the information on these interesting swords. I will be honest and admit I had never seen these before this thread. thanks all Jeff P.S. I will provide the pints if any of you ever come out this way. Sorry Tim but bitters are almost impossible to get in N.A., at least in Western Canada.

10th February 2006, 12:07 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	I must apologize for delay in responding. I just wanted to thank Wolviex for the outstanding post and illustrations supporting the observations on the Chinese motif presence on European hunting hangers of the 18th century, beautifully done!!! I would like to note also that in reviewing some Austrian sabres of the 18th century they also had openings pierced in similar location on the upper grip, presumably for lanyard or sabre knot. Jeff, I always admire your keen assessments of weapon 'forensics'. You have noted very astutely some important factors that suggest inconsistancy in this weapon. Since the components conform essentially to those seen on known sword examples of this period, I am still inclined to presume them original to the sword, although it would seem there has been rather inept attempt at cleaning the weapon. I also think the weapon was dismantled to clean the blade and guard, although the ferrule, thoroughly corroded, was of course not cleanable. Since it is obviously rusted through, it must have cracked in reassembly. The darkened deep pitting areas on the guard seem to be left from the overcleaning. If I am not mistaken, inconsistancies in corrosion or patination are often due to different metal composition or quality, as well as the manner of production of the metal of the components.The blade itself, rather than being a 'yataghan' blade, is of a form known to exist on these 'military' hangers. While I would defer final judgement on the integrity of this example to hands on examination and to those much more experienced on appraisals, these are my observations based on what can be seen in the photos. Best regards, Jim