Afghan Pulowar blade type?

mahratt · 23rd July 2016, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I remember a treatise on the origins of the Afghani " regulation khyber", where this and similar examples were presented as the very last step in the purported "evolution" and attributed to the very last years of the 19th century, the ultimate achievement of the Mashin Khana that was established in 1887. Ironically, the very same communication showed a photograph of a gentleman named Mohammed Yakub Khan dated 1879 carrying a similar sword. Thus, the supposedly final evolutionary step was in fact the earliest one

Darwin would have had a fit:-)))

I advise you to read the article again. Sword Yakub Khan - it's not "regulation Khyber knife".

Jim McDougall · 24th July 2016, 03:41 AM

My apologies, my notes on the photo I referred to were incorrect.
What I meant was the photo by John Burke at the signing if the Treaty of Gandamak, 26 May, 1879.
King Mohammed Yaqub Khan seated at center, on his left is Daoud Shah, his commander in chief......and my notation was to the distinct style of his hilt with the open parallel bar knuckleguard, recurved terminal at top.

It is thought that this hilt was possibly a prototype for the military style hilts which were to be produced at the Mashin Khana at Kabul in the early 1890s.
As seen in other photos, this style hilt is also to be found on the traditional Khyber blades, often with the 'Mazir I Sharif' stamp of Mashin Khana.
The heavily channeled European style blade (also pictured) became the more regularly produced model into turn of the century. Later many of the hilts were in brass, but with this distinctive 'bayonet style' hilt.

It seems that these Khyber bladed examples with military style hilts as pictured, may have been for some of the tribal levy's using traditional blades but with these Anglo-Afghan hilts.

The styling of the slotted knuckle guard seems to correspond to some styling on a number of paluoars as well as tulwars from these regions in the Northwest Frontier into Afghanistan.

The theme of the paper discussed the integration of the traditional blades and military style hilts as well as seeking the origins of the design, with the example of similar style in the sword of Daoud Shah in 1879 representing earliest known placement of its form. As I understood the title noting 'regulation Khyber' referred to the development of these military Afghan swords as well as their use with traditional Khyber blades in the tribal contingents .

ariel · 24th July 2016, 02:35 PM

This is true Jim: Afghanis were trying to mass produce their traditional Khybers at the Mashin Khana and to give them some European look( D guard). The upper one you have shown is an example. At the same time the mass-produced ones started using cheap materiel, - wood, - for the handles and got rid of any artistic elements present at the older handmade one. In a way, it was similar to what happened with Caucasian shashkas: the Russians appropriated it as their regulation weapon and modified it to the point of converting a beautiful native weapon into pretty ugly European-looking saber without the handguard ( the only homage to the original Caucasian inspiration in addition to the imitation of an eared pommel).

But the last one you have shown that was also carried by Yakub Khan has nothing to do with the Khyber: both the handle and the blade are European, and the blades on different examples were of a variety of patterns, none of which had anything to do with the original Khybers. The Yakub Khan's one was in existence well before the establishment of Mashin Khan. Those were just colonial models.

There was no evolution of Khybers : just a short-lived and unsuccessful attempt at mass production. And the purported "final step" of the presumed evolutionary process had nothing to do with the original model. As they say: true, true and unrelated.

mahratt · 24th July 2016, 08:29 PM

This is called - look but do not see.

I have to repeat again, Yakub Khan sword is different from the regulation Khyber knife. And I wrote about it in the article:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...regular+khyber

"Evolution" regulation Khyber knife is not only to acquire the shackle guard.

But numismatists - can not understand ...

ariel · 24th July 2016, 09:20 PM

Well, I just have to draw attention of any interested Forumite to :

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...regular+khyber

Posts ##11 and 12.

In the first one, the author shows 3 Afghani swords, from a mass-produced industrial copy of a real native khyber, with a typical blade and slightly modified handle down to the one with a typical British colonial handle and a European ( or, at the very least, Europe inspired) blade. The author then presents these models as " transitional steps in the evolution of the Khyber from Ethnic to the Regulation"

In the next post, the same author proposes to re-name " the Afghan Military Sword to Afghan Military (or Regulation) Khyber".

I think the message of the treatise was perfectly clear and unequivocal. The author was, indeed, within his rights to propose this classification. This does not mean that others have no right to question his conclusions.

I would submit that we are talking about 2 different items: attempted industrial modification of the native Afghani Khyber on the one hand and an unrelated short sword of a European pattern. The only thing that somehow may put them in the same box is the fact that all of them are short-bladed sidearms.

I am also slightly confused about the "numismatics" remark: does the author have any coins to bolster his conclusions? I'd love to see them.

Jim McDougall · 24th July 2016, 09:47 PM

Its always good to revisit old threads often even years later, as our knowledge base and ongoing research often offers new perspectives.
This is especially the case with knowledgeable and specialized writers such as Ariel and Mahratt, and I can only present my own understandings of the article and these weapons.

From what I learned, the sword worn by Daoud Shah in the 1879 photo was key in looking into the potential development of the Afghan 'regulation' short sword of the 1890s into around 1900+. Actually the only suggestion of regulation propriety was made by Oriental Arms at some point years ago and now notes misplaced.

What was significant was the appearance of the hilt on his sword which had slotted guard and rolled back terminal near pommel. Since this was 1879, and he certainly had the sword for a nominal period prior, we wonder if this suggested a larger presence of these type hilts pre Mashin Khana. While that state arsenal began in Kabul in 1887, tooling and production began in the early 1890s. My example of one of the 'regulation short swords' is dated 1893 if I recall.

The Dauod Shah sword seems to have a solid grip hilt, unlike the Mashin Khana examples which are admittedly workmanlike and austere. I would submit here that the primary arms production of the Mashin Khana was fireams, specifically current issue Enfields, and note the compelling appearance of these 'regulation' hilts to that of 'sword' bayonets.

The title of the article uses the term 'regulation Khyber knife' and development. Actually the article, excellent in its content, describes more the concurrent use of these distinct parallel slotted guard 'military' hilts on both the 'regulation' short sword AND its tribal cousin the KHYBER knife.
The text of the article addresses this comparatively, but does not mean to suggest that the tribal form of Khyber ('silawar') was 'regulation' BUT that it was contemporary to the production military type short swords which ostensibly were.

The example of the 'colonial' hilt worn by Daoud Shah was the key instance in the search for the development of this hilt form, which was indeed European IN FORM but clearly was produced in Afghan or local regions.

I could find no evidence of this kind of military hilt in either British production sources (including Enfield who indeed did import in degree from Solingen) nor the German sources.

I think the 'nusimatic' reference had to do with study on the Mazir i Sharif or Royal state stamp or device, which was keyed on the coins of the time. The presence of these stamps on both 'regulation' military form swords as well as on examples of the tribal Khybers with military hilts, was instrumental in establishing probable dates for examples in this study.

The term 'Khyber' was used mostly as an implied vernacular term for the military type short swords in tandem with the concurrently used tribal versions with the same hilt.

There is no known existing 'regulation ' for the military type Mashin Khana short sword, any more than any established for the use of the term 'Khyber' for the tribal swords which are actually known locally as 'siliwars'.
Further they are not KNIVES nor YATAGHANS!

Therefore the study aims to show more of a colloquially termed pairing of these edged weapons in their Afghan context of the times.

ariel · 24th July 2016, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The title of the article uses the term 'regulation Khyber knife' and development. Actually the article, excellent in its content, describes more the concurrent use of these distinct parallel slotted guard 'military' hilts on both the 'regulation' short sword AND its tribal cousin the KHYBER knife.
.

Exactly my point. The article was carefully researched and the description of the actual objects was exemplary. However, it was based on a wrong premise, tried to forcibly prove an incorrect hypothesis and inevitably reached a wrong conclusion.
There was no evolution. It was not even parallel development ( if by that we mean independent creation of virtually identical constructions). We are talking about 2 different short sidearms present in Afghanistan at the same time period.

ariel · 24th July 2016, 10:05 PM

The variety of Afghani short sabers was very wide: the blades, the handles, the manner of carrying.
They were no more "regulation" than khybers of different varieties, and the name of those was legion:-)

24th July 2016, 03:41 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,188	My apologies, my notes on the photo I referred to were incorrect. What I meant was the photo by John Burke at the signing if the Treaty of Gandamak, 26 May, 1879. King Mohammed Yaqub Khan seated at center, on his left is Daoud Shah, his commander in chief......and my notation was to the distinct style of his hilt with the open parallel bar knuckleguard, recurved terminal at top. It is thought that this hilt was possibly a prototype for the military style hilts which were to be produced at the Mashin Khana at Kabul in the early 1890s. As seen in other photos, this style hilt is also to be found on the traditional Khyber blades, often with the 'Mazir I Sharif' stamp of Mashin Khana. The heavily channeled European style blade (also pictured) became the more regularly produced model into turn of the century. Later many of the hilts were in brass, but with this distinctive 'bayonet style' hilt. It seems that these Khyber bladed examples with military style hilts as pictured, may have been for some of the tribal levy's using traditional blades but with these Anglo-Afghan hilts. The styling of the slotted knuckle guard seems to correspond to some styling on a number of paluoars as well as tulwars from these regions in the Northwest Frontier into Afghanistan. The theme of the paper discussed the integration of the traditional blades and military style hilts as well as seeking the origins of the design, with the example of similar style in the sword of Daoud Shah in 1879 representing earliest known placement of its form. As I understood the title noting 'regulation Khyber' referred to the development of these military Afghan swords as well as their use with traditional Khyber blades in the tribal contingents . Attached Images

24th July 2016, 10:05 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The variety of Afghani short sabers was very wide: the blades, the handles, the manner of carrying. They were no more "regulation" than khybers of different varieties, and the name of those was legion:-) Attached Images

24th July 2016, 02:35 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	This is true Jim: Afghanis were trying to mass produce their traditional Khybers at the Mashin Khana and to give them some European look( D guard). The upper one you have shown is an example. At the same time the mass-produced ones started using cheap materiel, - wood, - for the handles and got rid of any artistic elements present at the older handmade one. In a way, it was similar to what happened with Caucasian shashkas: the Russians appropriated it as their regulation weapon and modified it to the point of converting a beautiful native weapon into pretty ugly European-looking saber without the handguard ( the only homage to the original Caucasian inspiration in addition to the imitation of an eared pommel). But the last one you have shown that was also carried by Yakub Khan has nothing to do with the Khyber: both the handle and the blade are European, and the blades on different examples were of a variety of patterns, none of which had anything to do with the original Khybers. The Yakub Khan's one was in existence well before the establishment of Mashin Khan. Those were just colonial models. There was no evolution of Khybers : just a short-lived and unsuccessful attempt at mass production. And the purported "final step" of the presumed evolutionary process had nothing to do with the original model. As they say: true, true and unrelated.

24th July 2016, 08:29 PM	#4
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	This is called - look but do not see. I have to repeat again, Yakub Khan sword is different from the regulation Khyber knife. And I wrote about it in the article: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...regular+khyber "Evolution" regulation Khyber knife is not only to acquire the shackle guard. But numismatists - can not understand ...

24th July 2016, 09:20 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, I just have to draw attention of any interested Forumite to : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...regular+khyber Posts ##11 and 12. In the first one, the author shows 3 Afghani swords, from a mass-produced industrial copy of a real native khyber, with a typical blade and slightly modified handle down to the one with a typical British colonial handle and a European ( or, at the very least, Europe inspired) blade. The author then presents these models as " transitional steps in the evolution of the Khyber from Ethnic to the Regulation" In the next post, the same author proposes to re-name " the Afghan Military Sword to Afghan Military (or Regulation) Khyber". I think the message of the treatise was perfectly clear and unequivocal. The author was, indeed, within his rights to propose this classification. This does not mean that others have no right to question his conclusions. I would submit that we are talking about 2 different items: attempted industrial modification of the native Afghani Khyber on the one hand and an unrelated short sword of a European pattern. The only thing that somehow may put them in the same box is the fact that all of them are short-bladed sidearms. I am also slightly confused about the "numismatics" remark: does the author have any coins to bolster his conclusions? I'd love to see them.

24th July 2016, 09:47 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,188	Its always good to revisit old threads often even years later, as our knowledge base and ongoing research often offers new perspectives. This is especially the case with knowledgeable and specialized writers such as Ariel and Mahratt, and I can only present my own understandings of the article and these weapons. From what I learned, the sword worn by Daoud Shah in the 1879 photo was key in looking into the potential development of the Afghan 'regulation' short sword of the 1890s into around 1900+. Actually the only suggestion of regulation propriety was made by Oriental Arms at some point years ago and now notes misplaced. What was significant was the appearance of the hilt on his sword which had slotted guard and rolled back terminal near pommel. Since this was 1879, and he certainly had the sword for a nominal period prior, we wonder if this suggested a larger presence of these type hilts pre Mashin Khana. While that state arsenal began in Kabul in 1887, tooling and production began in the early 1890s. My example of one of the 'regulation short swords' is dated 1893 if I recall. The Dauod Shah sword seems to have a solid grip hilt, unlike the Mashin Khana examples which are admittedly workmanlike and austere. I would submit here that the primary arms production of the Mashin Khana was fireams, specifically current issue Enfields, and note the compelling appearance of these 'regulation' hilts to that of 'sword' bayonets. The title of the article uses the term 'regulation Khyber knife' and development. Actually the article, excellent in its content, describes more the concurrent use of these distinct parallel slotted guard 'military' hilts on both the 'regulation' short sword AND its tribal cousin the KHYBER knife. The text of the article addresses this comparatively, but does not mean to suggest that the tribal form of Khyber ('silawar') was 'regulation' BUT that it was contemporary to the production military type short swords which ostensibly were. The example of the 'colonial' hilt worn by Daoud Shah was the key instance in the search for the development of this hilt form, which was indeed European IN FORM but clearly was produced in Afghan or local regions. I could find no evidence of this kind of military hilt in either British production sources (including Enfield who indeed did import in degree from Solingen) nor the German sources. I think the 'nusimatic' reference had to do with study on the Mazir i Sharif or Royal state stamp or device, which was keyed on the coins of the time. The presence of these stamps on both 'regulation' military form swords as well as on examples of the tribal Khybers with military hilts, was instrumental in establishing probable dates for examples in this study. The term 'Khyber' was used mostly as an implied vernacular term for the military type short swords in tandem with the concurrently used tribal versions with the same hilt. There is no known existing 'regulation ' for the military type Mashin Khana short sword, any more than any established for the use of the term 'Khyber' for the tribal swords which are actually known locally as 'siliwars'. Further they are not KNIVES nor YATAGHANS! Therefore the study aims to show more of a colloquially termed pairing of these edged weapons in their Afghan context of the times.