strange shamshir for comment and advice on restoration

Miguel · 19th July 2016, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

While this may indeed be a 'basket case', as more historian than 'collector' or connoisseur, I always admire these battered old cases as old warriors who are in my opinion well worthy of restorative attention .

In my view, items should be 'stabilized' with as much use or repair of existing components as feasible. The damage and age found in these kinds of weapons to me stand as 'history' and literally untouched much in the sense of archaeologic discoveries. Perhaps a 'romantic' view admittedly, but I think profoundly valid.

This appears to me to potentially a Persian shamshir which found use in the volatile frontiers of Afghanistan and India's northwest frontiers in the latter 19th century. The unusual lanyard ring on the pommel as well as the four dot devices emplaced in the blade are what suggests this to me.

Not only worthy of necessary restoration, but continued research, as well exemplified by one of our long esteemed members who made a long running thread very much a group effort as he restored a 'basket case tulwar' from these regions.

I always think of Philip Tom for the restoration and authentic stabilization of these kinds of weapons.

There is history here, and that is not measured monetarily.

Hi Jim, your comments are like a breath of fresh air which I would entirely endorse, well said.
Regards
Miguel

mariusgmioc · 19th July 2016, 09:19 PM

After seeing the last photos, I am more convinced it is pattern welded, but very fine structure, somehow similar to the Hada on Japanese swords.

A very good blade!

Jim McDougall · 19th July 2016, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Jim, your comments are like a breath of fresh air which I would entirely endorse, well said.
Regards
Miguel

Thank you very much Miguel!

Mariusgmioc, it is a very good blade, which is why I suggested Philip, who is a master with these kinds of blades and refinishing, and well known in our community.

GePi · 20th July 2016, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you very much Miguel!

Mariusgmioc, it is a very good blade, which is why I suggested Philip, who is a master with these kinds of blades and refinishing, and well known in our community.

Thanks for you comment Jim, you captured my feelings on this issue really well. This sword somehow really speaks to me, and though I wouldn't say cost is no issue at all, I do not see this as a financial investment.

I'd love to ask peter, since I've seen some examples of of his work. But this issue http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21422 makes me a little hesitant to ship to the US. I've received some other suggestions per private message, which I think I will try first.

Roland_M · 20th July 2016, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GePi

Thanks for you comment Jim, you captured my feelings on this issue really well. This sword somehow really speaks to me, and though I wouldn't say cost is no issue at all, I do not see this as a financial investment.

I'd love to ask peter, since I've seen some examples of of his work. But this issue http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21422 makes me a little hesitant to ship to the US. I've received some other suggestions per private message, which I think I will try first.

The hilt seems made partially from rhinohorn and maybe walrus, so you should make the restoration in Germany!

I have made very well experiences with a professional restorer in Olbernhau (not me!). He restored my Yatagan perfectly.

Roland

Richard G · 20th July 2016, 01:03 PM

Just a suggestion, but could it be a blade from a tulwar modified with a shamshir style hilt to make it saleable in the Arab market?
Regards
Richard

Roland_M · 20th July 2016, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard G

Just a suggestion, but could it be a blade from a tulwar modified with a shamshir style hilt to make it saleable in the Arab market?
Regards
Richard

A good idea.
I think this blade is from early to mid 19th century. Persian blades of this period were normally more massive. More like a Kilij or the british 1796 light cavalry pattern than this blade.

mariusgmioc · 20th July 2016, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard G

Just a suggestion, but could it be a blade from a tulwar modified with a shamshir style hilt to make it saleable in the Arab market?
Regards
Richard

I might be wrong but to me this blade IS clearly a shamshir with a shamshir hilt. So it is a shamshir both, bladewise and hiltwise.

In my view, the characteristic Tulwar blade has less curvature and is wider than the shamshir blade.

A.alnakkas · 20th July 2016, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I might be wrong but to me this blade IS clearly a shamshir with a shamshir hilt. So it is a shamshir both, bladewise and hiltwise.

In my view, the characteristic Tulwar blade has less curvature and is wider than the shamshir blade.

Agree. Looks like a 'north' Indian made shamshir blade. Yes these can be found on Arab swords but this one does not have Arab dress.

GePi · 20th July 2016, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

The hilt seems made partially from rhinohorn and maybe walrus, so you should make the restoration in Germany!

I have made very well experiences with a professional restorer in Olbernhau (not me!). He restored my Yatagan perfectly.

Roland

Thanks for the reply, I sent you a PM.

As for the tulwar vs. shamshir debate, that may well be, I've seen lots of shamshir blades mounted on tulwar hilts, but the tang on this sword is actually still pretty long, the exposed part is already close to 8 cm, and the tangs of tulwar blades I have seen so far have been a lot shorter.

Intestingly the sword feels quite hefty in the hand. The balance point is down about a third of the length of the blade and the spine is quite thick with about 6 mm until very close to the tip. So I was quite suprised when it weighed in at only 750 grams.

Sajen · 20th July 2016, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

The hilt seems made partially from rhinohorn and maybe walrus, so you should make the restoration in Germany!

I have made very well experiences with a professional restorer in Olbernhau (not me!). He restored my Yatagan perfectly.

Hello GePi,

the upper scales are for sure walrus ivory, what are used by the lower parts I can't say from your pictures. The restoration will be a challenge but is possible and IMHO worth the effort. Maybe contact Roland, I've seen the yat restoration, very good. An other option will be a restorer you can find here: http://www.bfn.de/0305_sachverstaend...ller%5D=Expert

Best regards,
Detlef

David R · 20th July 2016, 07:41 PM

The ring on the side of the pommel cap reminds me of something. I think if you search the forum you will find it diagnostic of it's origin.

ariel · 21st July 2016, 01:47 AM

You mean the Baloch or Sindhi ones we have discussed recently?
That was exactly what I thought the moment I saw the very first pic:-)))))

19th July 2016, 09:19 PM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	After seeing the last photos, I am more convinced it is pattern welded, but very fine structure, somehow similar to the Hada on Japanese swords. A very good blade! Last edited by mariusgmioc; 19th July 2016 at 09:51 PM.

20th July 2016, 01:03 PM	#6
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 411	Just a suggestion, but could it be a blade from a tulwar modified with a shamshir style hilt to make it saleable in the Arab market? Regards Richard

20th July 2016, 07:41 PM	#12
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,120	The ring on the side of the pommel cap reminds me of something. I think if you search the forum you will find it diagnostic of it's origin.

21st July 2016, 01:47 AM	#13
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	You mean the Baloch or Sindhi ones we have discussed recently? That was exactly what I thought the moment I saw the very first pic:-)))))