strange shamshir for comment and advice on restoration

[GePi]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

This project looks like a real basket case to me!

I agree, and I don't really plan to do any work on this myself, both because I lack the skills but also because I think there is some potential in this piece.

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello,

The blade might be wootz but the delamination and the pattern in your photo seems to indicate more towards pattern welded.

I think the original scales were walrus ivory, but then when the tang broke, the scales broke off as well and only some parts were recovered, while the lost parts were crudely replaced with horn or whatever it is. But this is only my opinion.

Now if I were you, I would try to have it restored and have some new bone scales installed. But should check the material of the blade first, to make sure it is worth it.

You should be able to tell whether the blade is of wootz or it is pattern welded by examinng it with a magnifying glass or trying some local polishing and etching.

The pattern is actually quite tricky to photograph, I tried to take better pictures. I think it rather looks like a wootz pattern, but I am not 100% sure. The blade is actually etched, it is just a rather low contrast pattern that is wiped off in most areas.

Originally Posted by David R

Riveting a stub tang to a flat plate with the profile of the hilt is the normal construction for these.

That's really interesting. I have only seen one dehilted shamshir blade in M. Khorasani's book and I was sure the tang was a solid piece, but I looked it up just now and you cannot really tell, because there is no close up.
Also browsing through the catalogue there were many shamshir handles on which the pommel caps didn't cover the handle scales, but there is a noticeable gap filled up with adhesive. So this could be the original hilt assembly after all.
This begs the question of why is there no trace of adhesive above the guard?

[Jim McDougall]

While this may indeed be a 'basket case', as more historian than 'collector' or connoisseur, I always admire these battered old cases as old warriors who are in my opinion well worthy of restorative attention .

In my view, items should be 'stabilized' with as much use or repair of existing components as feasible. The damage and age found in these kinds of weapons to me stand as 'history' and literally untouched much in the sense of archaeologic discoveries. Perhaps a 'romantic' view admittedly, but I think profoundly valid.

This appears to me to potentially a Persian shamshir which found use in the volatile frontiers of Afghanistan and India's northwest frontiers in the latter 19th century. The unusual lanyard ring on the pommel as well as the four dot devices emplaced in the blade are what suggests this to me.

Not only worthy of necessary restoration, but continued research, as well exemplified by one of our long esteemed members who made a long running thread very much a group effort as he restored a 'basket case tulwar' from these regions.

I always think of Philip Tom for the restoration and authentic stabilization of these kinds of weapons.

There is history here, and that is not measured monetarily.

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

While this may indeed be a 'basket case', as more historian than 'collector' or connoisseur, I always admire these battered old cases as old warriors who are in my opinion well worthy of restorative attention .

In my view, items should be 'stabilized' with as much use or repair of existing components as feasible. The damage and age found in these kinds of weapons to me stand as 'history' and literally untouched much in the sense of archaeologic discoveries. Perhaps a 'romantic' view admittedly, but I think profoundly valid.

This appears to me to potentially a Persian shamshir which found use in the volatile frontiers of Afghanistan and India's northwest frontiers in the latter 19th century. The unusual lanyard ring on the pommel as well as the four dot devices emplaced in the blade are what suggests this to me.

Not only worthy of necessary restoration, but continued research, as well exemplified by one of our long esteemed members who made a long running thread very much a group effort as he restored a 'basket case tulwar' from these regions.

I always think of Philip Tom for the restoration and authentic stabilization of these kinds of weapons.

There is history here, and that is not measured monetarily.

Hi Jim, your comments are like a breath of fresh air which I would entirely endorse, well said.
Regards
Miguel

[mariusgmioc]

After seeing the last photos, I am more convinced it is pattern welded, but very fine structure, somehow similar to the Hada on Japanese swords.

A very good blade!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Jim, your comments are like a breath of fresh air which I would entirely endorse, well said.
Regards
Miguel

Thank you very much Miguel!

Mariusgmioc, it is a very good blade, which is why I suggested Philip, who is a master with these kinds of blades and refinishing, and well known in our community.

[GePi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you very much Miguel!

Mariusgmioc, it is a very good blade, which is why I suggested Philip, who is a master with these kinds of blades and refinishing, and well known in our community.

Thanks for you comment Jim, you captured my feelings on this issue really well. This sword somehow really speaks to me, and though I wouldn't say cost is no issue at all, I do not see this as a financial investment.

I'd love to ask peter, since I've seen some examples of of his work. But this issue http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21422 makes me a little hesitant to ship to the US. I've received some other suggestions per private message, which I think I will try first.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by GePi

Thanks for you comment Jim, you captured my feelings on this issue really well. This sword somehow really speaks to me, and though I wouldn't say cost is no issue at all, I do not see this as a financial investment.

I'd love to ask peter, since I've seen some examples of of his work. But this issue http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21422 makes me a little hesitant to ship to the US. I've received some other suggestions per private message, which I think I will try first.

The hilt seems made partially from rhinohorn and maybe walrus, so you should make the restoration in Germany!

I have made very well experiences with a professional restorer in Olbernhau (not me!). He restored my Yatagan perfectly.


Roland

[Richard G]

Just a suggestion, but could it be a blade from a tulwar modified with a shamshir style hilt to make it saleable in the Arab market?
Regards
Richard

[GePi]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

The hilt seems made partially from rhinohorn and maybe walrus, so you should make the restoration in Germany!

I have made very well experiences with a professional restorer in Olbernhau (not me!). He restored my Yatagan perfectly.


Roland

Thanks for the reply, I sent you a PM.

As for the tulwar vs. shamshir debate, that may well be, I've seen lots of shamshir blades mounted on tulwar hilts, but the tang on this sword is actually still pretty long, the exposed part is already close to 8 cm, and the tangs of tulwar blades I have seen so far have been a lot shorter.

Intestingly the sword feels quite hefty in the hand. The balance point is down about a third of the length of the blade and the spine is quite thick with about 6 mm until very close to the tip. So I was quite suprised when it weighed in at only 750 grams.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

The hilt seems made partially from rhinohorn and maybe walrus, so you should make the restoration in Germany!

I have made very well experiences with a professional restorer in Olbernhau (not me!). He restored my Yatagan perfectly.

Hello GePi,

the upper scales are for sure walrus ivory, what are used by the lower parts I can't say from your pictures. The restoration will be a challenge but is possible and IMHO worth the effort. Maybe contact Roland, I've seen the yat restoration, very good. An other option will be a restorer you can find here: http://www.bfn.de/0305_sachverstaend...ller%5D=Expert

Best regards,
Detlef