Need opinion about this Nogo Siluman

silkreeler · 17th July 2016, 10:30 AM

Old or new? How about the quality? I am under the impression that the body and tail of the dragon is supposed to be somewhat carved further into the blade, instead of fading away right under the beginning of the pamor ...

Any input will be highly appreciated.

Henk · 17th July 2016, 06:23 PM

This is a recently manufactured blade. Probably Madura. For what i can Judge on the pictures for a recent blade not bad at all.

silkreeler · 17th July 2016, 07:56 PM

Ohh.. I thought it was some old made but low quality work... What was the give away? Style? Material? Trying to learn something..

A. G. Maisey · 18th July 2016, 12:03 AM

This is indeed a "new" blade by Javanese standards, in that it has been made after the early Mataram II era, that is , after the death of Sultan Agung.

I am not prepared to go out on a limb and place it as late 18th century, or early 20th century, or anything in between unless I handle it, but it does not bear the characteristics of a blade made during the Kemardikan era.

Probably it is of East Javanese origin.

Jean · 18th July 2016, 03:50 PM

I agree with Alan that this blade seems to have some age, but also with Silkreeler that the carving of the naga body is odd, see another blade with a similar "primitive" naga head, also probably from East Java.
Regards

silkreeler · 18th July 2016, 08:20 PM

Thanks, Alan. Interesting you said this is not Kamardikan and gave such a wide time span .. I am re calibrating my sensors because of it.

Jean, I feel the naga in your picture is more natural? By this I mean the naga in my picture seem to be slightly "forced" to follow a certain pamor pattern.. And you can see on the other side of the blade the pamor stopped starkly before the dark iron. Could it be that there was pamor there, and the Mpu decided to stop carving the naga purposefully so as not to cut into the pamor?

A. G. Maisey · 19th July 2016, 12:26 AM

Silkreeler, it is somewhere between very difficult and downright impossible to put an age on a keris blade. The dress is often easier, but the blades are really, really difficult.

We have the tangguh system, which can sometimes help a bit, but it is far from perfect, and it relies on a number of assumptions --- very shaky, very flexible, very easily manipulated assumptions --- that True Believers will use to give an age to a blade. The age given must be regarded as an expression of faith.

Very old blades that have been removed from their society of origin and placed into a museum cabinet can look as if they came off the work bench yesterday.

Deliberately falsified blades can look as if they are 500 years old or more.

A very experienced person can often provide a fairly reliable estimate of age of a blade if he actually has it in his hand, but to guess age of a blade from a photo is in many, if not most cases a very unwise exercise in which to engage.

Solo in Central Jawa could well be regarded as the World Center of Keris Culture.

There used to be a man who lived there who was regarded as one of the greatest and most knowledgeable authorities on Javanese art in general, and on keris in particular. His keris collection was world famous, and he assisted a number of people both from within Indonesia, and from outside Indonesia, in their efforts to understand and to write about Javanese art. He was a high ranking member of the Karaton Surakarta Hierarchy and he was instrumental in the rebirth of Javanese keris culture.

In short, he had about as much knowledge and experience in the keris as it was possible for any person to have.

He was very well known to keris dealers and his attraction to genuine, old keris of unusual forms was a legend. Several very talented forgers made a lot of money by providing him with exactly what he wanted.

Ordinary collectors in the Western World are never exposed to the level of expertise that skilled Javanese forgers possess. They are safe from this because they do not spend the sort of money on keris that these forgers need to produce their best efforts.

However, if a man who was one of the best in his field could be fooled by dishonest dealers and forgers, what hope do any of us have when it comes to trying to gauge the age of a keris?

And from a photo?

Jean · 20th July 2016, 09:48 AM

Hello Alan,
Excellent and very useful analysis, thanks!

silkreeler · 20th July 2016, 11:08 AM

Noted .. I heard that not too long ago in China some "experts" issued certificate on some antiques, which in turn was used as leverage to borrow money in the bank ... This age estimating thing is indeed very tricky ...

A. G. Maisey · 20th July 2016, 03:14 PM

Valuations and/or appraisals on anything of value can very often be taken with a grain of salt, especially when theft and insurance claims are involved.

Nothing is what it may seem to be.

ariel · 30th July 2016, 03:16 AM

Alan,
This is a splendid story and what is even better, - it was beautifully told. The punchline was impeccable!!!

A. G. Maisey · 30th July 2016, 04:05 AM

Thank you gentlemen.

Good to know my comments are sometimes useful.

17th July 2016, 10:30 AM	#1
silkreeler Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 27	Need opinion about this Nogo Siluman Old or new? How about the quality? I am under the impression that the body and tail of the dragon is supposed to be somewhat carved further into the blade, instead of fading away right under the beginning of the pamor ... Any input will be highly appreciated. Attached Images

18th July 2016, 03:50 PM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I agree with Alan that this blade seems to have some age, but also with Silkreeler that the carving of the naga body is odd, see another blade with a similar "primitive" naga head, also probably from East Java. Regards Attached Images

17th July 2016, 06:23 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	This is a recently manufactured blade. Probably Madura. For what i can Judge on the pictures for a recent blade not bad at all.

17th July 2016, 07:56 PM	#3
silkreeler Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 27	Ohh.. I thought it was some old made but low quality work... What was the give away? Style? Material? Trying to learn something..

18th July 2016, 12:03 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	This is indeed a "new" blade by Javanese standards, in that it has been made after the early Mataram II era, that is , after the death of Sultan Agung. I am not prepared to go out on a limb and place it as late 18th century, or early 20th century, or anything in between unless I handle it, but it does not bear the characteristics of a blade made during the Kemardikan era. Probably it is of East Javanese origin.

18th July 2016, 08:20 PM	#6
silkreeler Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 27	Thanks, Alan. Interesting you said this is not Kamardikan and gave such a wide time span .. I am re calibrating my sensors because of it. Jean, I feel the naga in your picture is more natural? By this I mean the naga in my picture seem to be slightly "forced" to follow a certain pamor pattern.. And you can see on the other side of the blade the pamor stopped starkly before the dark iron. Could it be that there was pamor there, and the Mpu decided to stop carving the naga purposefully so as not to cut into the pamor?

19th July 2016, 12:26 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Silkreeler, it is somewhere between very difficult and downright impossible to put an age on a keris blade. The dress is often easier, but the blades are really, really difficult. We have the tangguh system, which can sometimes help a bit, but it is far from perfect, and it relies on a number of assumptions --- very shaky, very flexible, very easily manipulated assumptions --- that True Believers will use to give an age to a blade. The age given must be regarded as an expression of faith. Very old blades that have been removed from their society of origin and placed into a museum cabinet can look as if they came off the work bench yesterday. Deliberately falsified blades can look as if they are 500 years old or more. A very experienced person can often provide a fairly reliable estimate of age of a blade if he actually has it in his hand, but to guess age of a blade from a photo is in many, if not most cases a very unwise exercise in which to engage. Solo in Central Jawa could well be regarded as the World Center of Keris Culture. There used to be a man who lived there who was regarded as one of the greatest and most knowledgeable authorities on Javanese art in general, and on keris in particular. His keris collection was world famous, and he assisted a number of people both from within Indonesia, and from outside Indonesia, in their efforts to understand and to write about Javanese art. He was a high ranking member of the Karaton Surakarta Hierarchy and he was instrumental in the rebirth of Javanese keris culture. In short, he had about as much knowledge and experience in the keris as it was possible for any person to have. He was very well known to keris dealers and his attraction to genuine, old keris of unusual forms was a legend. Several very talented forgers made a lot of money by providing him with exactly what he wanted. Ordinary collectors in the Western World are never exposed to the level of expertise that skilled Javanese forgers possess. They are safe from this because they do not spend the sort of money on keris that these forgers need to produce their best efforts. However, if a man who was one of the best in his field could be fooled by dishonest dealers and forgers, what hope do any of us have when it comes to trying to gauge the age of a keris? And from a photo?

20th July 2016, 09:48 AM	#8
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, Excellent and very useful analysis, thanks!

20th July 2016, 11:08 AM	#9
silkreeler Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 27	Noted .. I heard that not too long ago in China some "experts" issued certificate on some antiques, which in turn was used as leverage to borrow money in the bank ... This age estimating thing is indeed very tricky ...

20th July 2016, 03:14 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Valuations and/or appraisals on anything of value can very often be taken with a grain of salt, especially when theft and insurance claims are involved. Nothing is what it may seem to be.

30th July 2016, 03:16 AM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Alan, This is a splendid story and what is even better, - it was beautifully told. The punchline was impeccable!!!

30th July 2016, 04:05 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Thank you gentlemen. Good to know my comments are sometimes useful.