What do we know? I mean really.

ulfberth · 7th July 2016, 08:53 AM

Hi Ed,

If I hurt your feelings I'm really sorry, It was not my intend, all I meant that I never seen this type of blade before was just that, I never stated any conclusion to it that is was bad, I could just as well be understood that its rare.
The facts ( what we do know so far ) is I asked for other forum members If they had more info on this type of blade, that does not seem like someone who has drawn any conclusion but rather someone who wants to learn more. Lee is the only one who answered, other than that I have seen no photos of similar blades, so it must be a rare deviation.
I really think its sad that there is such a fuzz for just admitting my lack of experience on this type of blade ( not seeing it before ) is so misunderstood, the message after this no topic is however very well understood.
And self appointed experts what do we know about them? Well the fact is as Michael always said , there is no school were you can study antique arms, therefore all experts are self proclaimed or appointed by other people that are self appointed experts themselves, so this whole point of debate is pretty pointless, which brings me back to the original question, " what do we really know" perhaps ...... Its also good to ask ourselves "what do we really want to know and what not"

kind regards

Ulfberth

ulfberth · 7th July 2016, 11:36 AM

Nothing to do with this case but about knowledge, what we all should know is:

- buyers and owners do want to know what they get for their money and if something is wrong with it... some really want to know

- sellers mostly don't want that potential buyers know if something is wrong with what they sold, and they most certainly don't want anybody else to tell

fernando · 7th July 2016, 12:59 PM

Assuming the contents of this thread conveys a well defined message, the interpretation of its points, as posted, seems somehow erratic here and there. The suggestion for its moving to the Miscellania section, based on the fact that no actual weapon is present for discussion, seems to be a good idea; as also the arguments to be further posted, are expected to fall within a sportsmen ambiance.

-

Ed · 7th July 2016, 01:52 PM

Huh? I have no idea what you are talking about. Are you referring to the sword I posted?

What I wrote on this thread is about an issue that I have been thinking about for ages. That of the nature of the sample of data that we have to make judgement about objects. I have had discussions with the curator at the Met on the selfsame issue and his observations mirror my own.

This really has nothing to do with anything else, It took me a while to know what you were referring to.

No need for any apologies whatsoever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Hi Ed,

If I hurt your feelings I'm really sorry, It was not my intend, all I meant that I never seen this type of blade before was just that, I never stated any conclusion to it that is was bad, I could just as well be understood that its rare.
The facts ( what we do know so far ) is I asked for other forum members If they had more info on this type of blade, that does not seem like someone who has drawn any conclusion but rather someone who wants to learn more. Lee is the only one who answered, other than that I have seen no photos of similar blades, so it must be a rare deviation.
I really think its sad that there is such a fuzz for just admitting my lack of experience on this type of blade ( not seeing it before ) is so misunderstood, the message after this no topic is however very well understood.
And self appointed experts what do we know about them? Well the fact is as Michael always said , there is no school were you can study antique arms, therefore all experts are self proclaimed or appointed by other people that are self appointed experts themselves, so this whole point of debate is pretty pointless, which brings me back to the original question, " what do we really know" perhaps ...... Its also good to ask ourselves "what do we really want to know and what not"

kind regards

Ulfberth

VANDOO · 9th July 2016, 05:21 AM

LIFE IS SHORT AND NO ONE MAN OR EVEN AN INSTITUTION CAN HAVE SEEN IT ALL. EVEN THEN THOSE WHO HAVE SEEN MORE THAN MOST PEOPLE WILL HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS BASED ON THEIR WAY OF THINKING AND ON THE REFERENCES AND PEOPLE THEY LEARNED FROM. SOME ARE MORE OPEN MINDED AND OTHERS WILL REQUIRE A LARGE AMOUNT OF IRREFUTABLE PROVENANCE TO BE CONVINCED. MANY MORE WILL NOT COMMIT TO EXPRESSING THEIR OPINION AT ALL. IT WOULD BE NICE TO HAVE OLDMAN, OAKSHOT,CAMERON STONE AND THE MANY OTHERS WHO SPENT THEIR LIVES STUDYING AND BUYING AND SELLING WEAPONS AVAILABLE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS. THEY AND THE MANY DEALERS HAVE HANDLED MANY MORE ITEMS THAN THE AVERAGE COLLECTOR AND OVER THE YEARS WOULD HAVE PICKED UP A LOT OF KNOWLEDGE IN THEIR SPECIALTY'S AS WELL AS MOST EVERYTHING ELSE. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR HANDLING LOTS OF REAL EXAMPLES OF ANYTHING, REFERENCE BOOKS ARE GOOD BUT YOU ONLY LEARN TO PARROT WHAT SOMEONE ELSE HAS WRITTEN RIGHT OR WRONG. THIS FORUM HAS MANY VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE PEOPLE THAT EXPRESS THEIR OPINIONS AND ADD PICTURES OF ITEMS PERHAPS NEVER PUBLISHED BEFORE.
THE FORUM IS A PLACE TO SHOW OR FIND THAT NEVER BEFORE SEEN ITEM AND A PLACE FOR ALL FUTURE SCHOLARS TO LOOK THRU A LARGE AMOUNT OF ITEMS AND INFORMATION. BEING ALIVE THE FORUM IS NOT JUST THE SAME BOOK THAT EVERYONE STARTS WITH ON HIS SEARCH. AND HERE QUESTIONS CAN BE ANSWERED AND OPINIONS EXPRESSED. THE FORUM ALONG WITH THE GOOD REFERENCES AND ACTUALLY HANDLING A LARGE VOLUME OF WEAPONS WILL LEAD TO OUR FUTURE EXPERTS. SO THESE FORUMS AND POSTS ARE FUN BUT ALSO IMPORTANT AND BENEFICIAL TO DEALERS AND FUTURE COLLECTORS ALIKE.

ariel · 16th July 2016, 11:14 PM

I read this thread and smile...

There is a whole branch of philosophy called epistemology, dealing with the problem of knowledge: how do we know that we really know something.

The closest they seem to agree on is that the absense of evidence is not the same as the evidence of absense.

7th July 2016, 12:59 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Assuming the contents of this thread conveys a well defined message, the interpretation of its points, as posted, seems somehow erratic here and there. The suggestion for its moving to the Miscellania section, based on the fact that no actual weapon is present for discussion, seems to be a good idea; as also the arguments to be further posted, are expected to fall within a sportsmen ambiance. - Last edited by fernando; 7th July 2016 at 03:05 PM.

7th July 2016, 08:53 AM	#1
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 424	Hi Ed, If I hurt your feelings I'm really sorry, It was not my intend, all I meant that I never seen this type of blade before was just that, I never stated any conclusion to it that is was bad, I could just as well be understood that its rare. The facts ( what we do know so far ) is I asked for other forum members If they had more info on this type of blade, that does not seem like someone who has drawn any conclusion but rather someone who wants to learn more. Lee is the only one who answered, other than that I have seen no photos of similar blades, so it must be a rare deviation. I really think its sad that there is such a fuzz for just admitting my lack of experience on this type of blade ( not seeing it before ) is so misunderstood, the message after this no topic is however very well understood. And self appointed experts what do we know about them? Well the fact is as Michael always said , there is no school were you can study antique arms, therefore all experts are self proclaimed or appointed by other people that are self appointed experts themselves, so this whole point of debate is pretty pointless, which brings me back to the original question, " what do we really know" perhaps ...... Its also good to ask ourselves "what do we really want to know and what not" kind regards Ulfberth

7th July 2016, 11:36 AM	#2
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 424	Nothing to do with this case but about knowledge, what we all should know is: - buyers and owners do want to know what they get for their money and if something is wrong with it... some really want to know - sellers mostly don't want that potential buyers know if something is wrong with what they sold, and they most certainly don't want anybody else to tell

9th July 2016, 05:21 AM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	LIFE IS SHORT AND NO ONE MAN OR EVEN AN INSTITUTION CAN HAVE SEEN IT ALL. EVEN THEN THOSE WHO HAVE SEEN MORE THAN MOST PEOPLE WILL HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS BASED ON THEIR WAY OF THINKING AND ON THE REFERENCES AND PEOPLE THEY LEARNED FROM. SOME ARE MORE OPEN MINDED AND OTHERS WILL REQUIRE A LARGE AMOUNT OF IRREFUTABLE PROVENANCE TO BE CONVINCED. MANY MORE WILL NOT COMMIT TO EXPRESSING THEIR OPINION AT ALL. IT WOULD BE NICE TO HAVE OLDMAN, OAKSHOT,CAMERON STONE AND THE MANY OTHERS WHO SPENT THEIR LIVES STUDYING AND BUYING AND SELLING WEAPONS AVAILABLE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS. THEY AND THE MANY DEALERS HAVE HANDLED MANY MORE ITEMS THAN THE AVERAGE COLLECTOR AND OVER THE YEARS WOULD HAVE PICKED UP A LOT OF KNOWLEDGE IN THEIR SPECIALTY'S AS WELL AS MOST EVERYTHING ELSE. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR HANDLING LOTS OF REAL EXAMPLES OF ANYTHING, REFERENCE BOOKS ARE GOOD BUT YOU ONLY LEARN TO PARROT WHAT SOMEONE ELSE HAS WRITTEN RIGHT OR WRONG. THIS FORUM HAS MANY VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE PEOPLE THAT EXPRESS THEIR OPINIONS AND ADD PICTURES OF ITEMS PERHAPS NEVER PUBLISHED BEFORE. THE FORUM IS A PLACE TO SHOW OR FIND THAT NEVER BEFORE SEEN ITEM AND A PLACE FOR ALL FUTURE SCHOLARS TO LOOK THRU A LARGE AMOUNT OF ITEMS AND INFORMATION. BEING ALIVE THE FORUM IS NOT JUST THE SAME BOOK THAT EVERYONE STARTS WITH ON HIS SEARCH. AND HERE QUESTIONS CAN BE ANSWERED AND OPINIONS EXPRESSED. THE FORUM ALONG WITH THE GOOD REFERENCES AND ACTUALLY HANDLING A LARGE VOLUME OF WEAPONS WILL LEAD TO OUR FUTURE EXPERTS. SO THESE FORUMS AND POSTS ARE FUN BUT ALSO IMPORTANT AND BENEFICIAL TO DEALERS AND FUTURE COLLECTORS ALIKE.

16th July 2016, 11:14 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I read this thread and smile... There is a whole branch of philosophy called epistemology, dealing with the problem of knowledge: how do we know that we really know something. The closest they seem to agree on is that the absense of evidence is not the same as the evidence of absense.