What do we know? I mean really.

Ed · 7th July 2016, 02:57 AM

I think that you are reading too much into what I am saying.

To strip the argument to it's bare bones, when we say that a piece is "good", ie authentic, based on hard evidence, we are probably correct.

When we say that a piece is "bad" ie fake/repro, based on a lack of examples, we are on thin ice since our sample base is woefully inadequate to claim that it is representative.

Jim McDougall · 7th July 2016, 04:38 AM

I think that when evaluating an item, one has to keep somewhat an open mind and naturally use known comparable items, and consider viable reasons for any deviation or variation in its character. In addition to visual comparisons which correspond to provenanced examples or otherwise detailed support, there has to be physical or 'forensic' examination.

We cannot (in my opinion) disclaim an item or elements of its character based on absence of similar examples or style etc.
The thing is about 'how much we know' is, that our core of knowledge in various areas and fields of study is ever increasing. That is why research never ceases. We are never complacent in holdings of data, as these can often be further supported and proven, or equally disproven. In such cases further research might be seen as , to know what something is, sometimes we have to qualify what it isn't, in an oblique perspective.

The purpose of discussions we have, again in my opinion, is to present and exchange ideas and information, bringing together as much data as possible for evaluation. We all have areas of specialty and experience in a broad scope of subject matter. Bringing these together in venues such as ours makes it possible for the advancement of the knowledge in many areas.

It is a difficult and sensitive thing to cast dispersions on an item, and declare it a fake or reproduction, and those kinds of assessments should be carefully worded and explained. I really don't think most would be as cavalier as to dismiss an item as such simply because they had not seen one like it before.
Such an admission would only reveal, depending on the persons expertise, the fact that they had not, but gauged on their experience might be more or less compelling.

Too many collectors insist on neat and concise classifications, and in my view, items may often fall 'outside the box' , so one should carefully qualify such exceptions accordingly.

Those are my thoughts.

ulfberth · 7th July 2016, 08:53 AM

Hi Ed,

If I hurt your feelings I'm really sorry, It was not my intend, all I meant that I never seen this type of blade before was just that, I never stated any conclusion to it that is was bad, I could just as well be understood that its rare.
The facts ( what we do know so far ) is I asked for other forum members If they had more info on this type of blade, that does not seem like someone who has drawn any conclusion but rather someone who wants to learn more. Lee is the only one who answered, other than that I have seen no photos of similar blades, so it must be a rare deviation.
I really think its sad that there is such a fuzz for just admitting my lack of experience on this type of blade ( not seeing it before ) is so misunderstood, the message after this no topic is however very well understood.
And self appointed experts what do we know about them? Well the fact is as Michael always said , there is no school were you can study antique arms, therefore all experts are self proclaimed or appointed by other people that are self appointed experts themselves, so this whole point of debate is pretty pointless, which brings me back to the original question, " what do we really know" perhaps ...... Its also good to ask ourselves "what do we really want to know and what not"

kind regards

Ulfberth

ulfberth · 7th July 2016, 11:36 AM

Nothing to do with this case but about knowledge, what we all should know is:

- buyers and owners do want to know what they get for their money and if something is wrong with it... some really want to know

- sellers mostly don't want that potential buyers know if something is wrong with what they sold, and they most certainly don't want anybody else to tell

fernando · 7th July 2016, 12:59 PM

Assuming the contents of this thread conveys a well defined message, the interpretation of its points, as posted, seems somehow erratic here and there. The suggestion for its moving to the Miscellania section, based on the fact that no actual weapon is present for discussion, seems to be a good idea; as also the arguments to be further posted, are expected to fall within a sportsmen ambiance.

-

Ed · 7th July 2016, 01:52 PM

Huh? I have no idea what you are talking about. Are you referring to the sword I posted?

What I wrote on this thread is about an issue that I have been thinking about for ages. That of the nature of the sample of data that we have to make judgement about objects. I have had discussions with the curator at the Met on the selfsame issue and his observations mirror my own.

This really has nothing to do with anything else, It took me a while to know what you were referring to.

No need for any apologies whatsoever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Hi Ed,

If I hurt your feelings I'm really sorry, It was not my intend, all I meant that I never seen this type of blade before was just that, I never stated any conclusion to it that is was bad, I could just as well be understood that its rare.
The facts ( what we do know so far ) is I asked for other forum members If they had more info on this type of blade, that does not seem like someone who has drawn any conclusion but rather someone who wants to learn more. Lee is the only one who answered, other than that I have seen no photos of similar blades, so it must be a rare deviation.
I really think its sad that there is such a fuzz for just admitting my lack of experience on this type of blade ( not seeing it before ) is so misunderstood, the message after this no topic is however very well understood.
And self appointed experts what do we know about them? Well the fact is as Michael always said , there is no school were you can study antique arms, therefore all experts are self proclaimed or appointed by other people that are self appointed experts themselves, so this whole point of debate is pretty pointless, which brings me back to the original question, " what do we really know" perhaps ...... Its also good to ask ourselves "what do we really want to know and what not"

kind regards

Ulfberth

VANDOO · 9th July 2016, 05:21 AM

LIFE IS SHORT AND NO ONE MAN OR EVEN AN INSTITUTION CAN HAVE SEEN IT ALL. EVEN THEN THOSE WHO HAVE SEEN MORE THAN MOST PEOPLE WILL HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS BASED ON THEIR WAY OF THINKING AND ON THE REFERENCES AND PEOPLE THEY LEARNED FROM. SOME ARE MORE OPEN MINDED AND OTHERS WILL REQUIRE A LARGE AMOUNT OF IRREFUTABLE PROVENANCE TO BE CONVINCED. MANY MORE WILL NOT COMMIT TO EXPRESSING THEIR OPINION AT ALL. IT WOULD BE NICE TO HAVE OLDMAN, OAKSHOT,CAMERON STONE AND THE MANY OTHERS WHO SPENT THEIR LIVES STUDYING AND BUYING AND SELLING WEAPONS AVAILABLE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS. THEY AND THE MANY DEALERS HAVE HANDLED MANY MORE ITEMS THAN THE AVERAGE COLLECTOR AND OVER THE YEARS WOULD HAVE PICKED UP A LOT OF KNOWLEDGE IN THEIR SPECIALTY'S AS WELL AS MOST EVERYTHING ELSE. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR HANDLING LOTS OF REAL EXAMPLES OF ANYTHING, REFERENCE BOOKS ARE GOOD BUT YOU ONLY LEARN TO PARROT WHAT SOMEONE ELSE HAS WRITTEN RIGHT OR WRONG. THIS FORUM HAS MANY VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE PEOPLE THAT EXPRESS THEIR OPINIONS AND ADD PICTURES OF ITEMS PERHAPS NEVER PUBLISHED BEFORE.
THE FORUM IS A PLACE TO SHOW OR FIND THAT NEVER BEFORE SEEN ITEM AND A PLACE FOR ALL FUTURE SCHOLARS TO LOOK THRU A LARGE AMOUNT OF ITEMS AND INFORMATION. BEING ALIVE THE FORUM IS NOT JUST THE SAME BOOK THAT EVERYONE STARTS WITH ON HIS SEARCH. AND HERE QUESTIONS CAN BE ANSWERED AND OPINIONS EXPRESSED. THE FORUM ALONG WITH THE GOOD REFERENCES AND ACTUALLY HANDLING A LARGE VOLUME OF WEAPONS WILL LEAD TO OUR FUTURE EXPERTS. SO THESE FORUMS AND POSTS ARE FUN BUT ALSO IMPORTANT AND BENEFICIAL TO DEALERS AND FUTURE COLLECTORS ALIKE.

ariel · 16th July 2016, 11:14 PM

I read this thread and smile...

There is a whole branch of philosophy called epistemology, dealing with the problem of knowledge: how do we know that we really know something.

The closest they seem to agree on is that the absense of evidence is not the same as the evidence of absense.

7th July 2016, 12:59 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Assuming the contents of this thread conveys a well defined message, the interpretation of its points, as posted, seems somehow erratic here and there. The suggestion for its moving to the Miscellania section, based on the fact that no actual weapon is present for discussion, seems to be a good idea; as also the arguments to be further posted, are expected to fall within a sportsmen ambiance. - Last edited by fernando; 7th July 2016 at 03:05 PM.

7th July 2016, 02:57 AM	#1
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 260	I think that you are reading too much into what I am saying. To strip the argument to it's bare bones, when we say that a piece is "good", ie authentic, based on hard evidence, we are probably correct. When we say that a piece is "bad" ie fake/repro, based on a lack of examples, we are on thin ice since our sample base is woefully inadequate to claim that it is representative.

7th July 2016, 04:38 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	I think that when evaluating an item, one has to keep somewhat an open mind and naturally use known comparable items, and consider viable reasons for any deviation or variation in its character. In addition to visual comparisons which correspond to provenanced examples or otherwise detailed support, there has to be physical or 'forensic' examination. We cannot (in my opinion) disclaim an item or elements of its character based on absence of similar examples or style etc. The thing is about 'how much we know' is, that our core of knowledge in various areas and fields of study is ever increasing. That is why research never ceases. We are never complacent in holdings of data, as these can often be further supported and proven, or equally disproven. In such cases further research might be seen as , to know what something is, sometimes we have to qualify what it isn't, in an oblique perspective. The purpose of discussions we have, again in my opinion, is to present and exchange ideas and information, bringing together as much data as possible for evaluation. We all have areas of specialty and experience in a broad scope of subject matter. Bringing these together in venues such as ours makes it possible for the advancement of the knowledge in many areas. It is a difficult and sensitive thing to cast dispersions on an item, and declare it a fake or reproduction, and those kinds of assessments should be carefully worded and explained. I really don't think most would be as cavalier as to dismiss an item as such simply because they had not seen one like it before. Such an admission would only reveal, depending on the persons expertise, the fact that they had not, but gauged on their experience might be more or less compelling. Too many collectors insist on neat and concise classifications, and in my view, items may often fall 'outside the box' , so one should carefully qualify such exceptions accordingly. Those are my thoughts.

7th July 2016, 08:53 AM	#3
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 424	Hi Ed, If I hurt your feelings I'm really sorry, It was not my intend, all I meant that I never seen this type of blade before was just that, I never stated any conclusion to it that is was bad, I could just as well be understood that its rare. The facts ( what we do know so far ) is I asked for other forum members If they had more info on this type of blade, that does not seem like someone who has drawn any conclusion but rather someone who wants to learn more. Lee is the only one who answered, other than that I have seen no photos of similar blades, so it must be a rare deviation. I really think its sad that there is such a fuzz for just admitting my lack of experience on this type of blade ( not seeing it before ) is so misunderstood, the message after this no topic is however very well understood. And self appointed experts what do we know about them? Well the fact is as Michael always said , there is no school were you can study antique arms, therefore all experts are self proclaimed or appointed by other people that are self appointed experts themselves, so this whole point of debate is pretty pointless, which brings me back to the original question, " what do we really know" perhaps ...... Its also good to ask ourselves "what do we really want to know and what not" kind regards Ulfberth

7th July 2016, 11:36 AM	#4
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 424	Nothing to do with this case but about knowledge, what we all should know is: - buyers and owners do want to know what they get for their money and if something is wrong with it... some really want to know - sellers mostly don't want that potential buyers know if something is wrong with what they sold, and they most certainly don't want anybody else to tell

9th July 2016, 05:21 AM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	LIFE IS SHORT AND NO ONE MAN OR EVEN AN INSTITUTION CAN HAVE SEEN IT ALL. EVEN THEN THOSE WHO HAVE SEEN MORE THAN MOST PEOPLE WILL HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS BASED ON THEIR WAY OF THINKING AND ON THE REFERENCES AND PEOPLE THEY LEARNED FROM. SOME ARE MORE OPEN MINDED AND OTHERS WILL REQUIRE A LARGE AMOUNT OF IRREFUTABLE PROVENANCE TO BE CONVINCED. MANY MORE WILL NOT COMMIT TO EXPRESSING THEIR OPINION AT ALL. IT WOULD BE NICE TO HAVE OLDMAN, OAKSHOT,CAMERON STONE AND THE MANY OTHERS WHO SPENT THEIR LIVES STUDYING AND BUYING AND SELLING WEAPONS AVAILABLE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS. THEY AND THE MANY DEALERS HAVE HANDLED MANY MORE ITEMS THAN THE AVERAGE COLLECTOR AND OVER THE YEARS WOULD HAVE PICKED UP A LOT OF KNOWLEDGE IN THEIR SPECIALTY'S AS WELL AS MOST EVERYTHING ELSE. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR HANDLING LOTS OF REAL EXAMPLES OF ANYTHING, REFERENCE BOOKS ARE GOOD BUT YOU ONLY LEARN TO PARROT WHAT SOMEONE ELSE HAS WRITTEN RIGHT OR WRONG. THIS FORUM HAS MANY VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE PEOPLE THAT EXPRESS THEIR OPINIONS AND ADD PICTURES OF ITEMS PERHAPS NEVER PUBLISHED BEFORE. THE FORUM IS A PLACE TO SHOW OR FIND THAT NEVER BEFORE SEEN ITEM AND A PLACE FOR ALL FUTURE SCHOLARS TO LOOK THRU A LARGE AMOUNT OF ITEMS AND INFORMATION. BEING ALIVE THE FORUM IS NOT JUST THE SAME BOOK THAT EVERYONE STARTS WITH ON HIS SEARCH. AND HERE QUESTIONS CAN BE ANSWERED AND OPINIONS EXPRESSED. THE FORUM ALONG WITH THE GOOD REFERENCES AND ACTUALLY HANDLING A LARGE VOLUME OF WEAPONS WILL LEAD TO OUR FUTURE EXPERTS. SO THESE FORUMS AND POSTS ARE FUN BUT ALSO IMPORTANT AND BENEFICIAL TO DEALERS AND FUTURE COLLECTORS ALIKE.

16th July 2016, 11:14 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I read this thread and smile... There is a whole branch of philosophy called epistemology, dealing with the problem of knowledge: how do we know that we really know something. The closest they seem to agree on is that the absense of evidence is not the same as the evidence of absense.