Attribution of Indian (?) handle: Hyderabad?

[estcrh]

Jam of Las Bela and suite, Durbar Delhi 1903, Jam of Las bela was the princely title of Las Bela State in Balochistan.

Take a look at the sword hilts.

[ariel]

Beautiful!
Thanks Eric and Ibrahiim!

The Ibrahiim's example shows a traditional Persian shamshir handle with Arabian decorative motives ( wire in particular).
But Eric's photo is astonishing: at least two handles that are spot on, and with impeccable attribution to Balochistan/Sindh.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Jam of Las Bela and suite, Durbar Delhi 1903, Jam of Las bela was the princely title of Las Bela State in Balochistan.

Take a look at the sword hilts.

You are an amazing guy!
How do you find all these archives?
Now as Ariel, I agree that there is no reason to doubt of the origin of these swords.

[Jim McDougall]

I agree, Eric is clearly one of the most remarkable archivists, and seems to consistently come up with irrefutable illustrative examples to bring discussions to terms.

This is a great discussion on these interesting shamshirs, and I would not doubt in the least any attributions by Oliver or Ward. There is little substitute for the many years of countless examples and in depth study.

I would point out that even that being the case, one always seeks further corroboration and support for even apparently firmly set attributions. The reason for this is partly to explain the inevitable variants which will arise as well as being able to present the most comprehensively cited support in further study.

Naturally one has opinions, but a diligent and responsible researcher never stands on that alone, and does not stop seeking other published or researched material. Obviously those sources are also other opinions of those who have researched often similar material and examples, and can often provide remarkable perspective. Often this comes from examples or cases one or the other may not have had access to. In other cases it may be subsequent research and evidence not at hand when extant material was published.
This is well shown in the comments and notes from Ibrahiim, who has had extensive field experience in the field and with the ethnic groups being discussed as pertains to these sword forms.

Clearly the true and serious study of the history and development of arms forms is always a work in progress, and to ever seek further corroboration of evidence and to share opinions in a comparative manner in discussion is not only prudent, but powerfully constructive.

Thanks very much guys!!!

[ariel]

OK, to summarize:

- We have historical evidence of Yemeni and ( especially) Omani Arabs living in Baluchistan and Baluchis living in Oman . Such exchange of population is a fertile ground for cultural and decorative exchange.

- We have Lotfy's testimonial that similar handles are seen in Oman even now, exclusively among the Baluch

- We have an old post here showing an identical handle on a shamshir, with excellent provenance to Baluchistan and Hyderabad

- We have a photograph of Baluchis carrying swords with identical handle

- We have unquestionable South Arabian decorative motives on the handles presented here.


What we are still missing, is the Indian example of a handle that could have served as a basis for the Arab silversmiths to apply their traditional decorations.


I would like to suggest, that the following purely Indian/Indo-Persian handles with a camel head with dulla might have fulfilled this function.
Pic is taken from the Robert Hales' book, p.229 ( ##561,562)

[Jim McDougall]

Good suggestion.....Baluchistan/Sind areas desert.
Possibly stylization .
Always thought Kabyle flyssa extreme stylization of camel too.

Looked in Pant?
There is a shamshir hilt with roundels similar to Hyderabad type sa'ifs.

[ariel]

Had enough time for Hales only. Pant is next:-)

The pommel has similar geometry: bent at 90 degrees, and then curves down.
Very idiosyncratic.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

What we are still missing, is the Indian example of a handle that could have served as a basis for the Arab silversmiths to apply their traditional decorations.

There was a lot of trade between Indian and Arabic countries, There are Indians pictured with Arab style swords that appear to be Indian made, while you can not see the blade the scabbard on this sword does not look especially Arabic to me.


The Nawab of Loharu. Durbar Delhi 1903.

[ariel]

OK, here is an example from Pant. Pommel's terminal is not bent, but still has a very specific ring through it.
Attributed as Mughal, 17 century.

[Jim McDougall]

That was the one I was thinking of

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

OK, here is an example from Pant. Pommel's terminal is not bent, but still has a very specific ring through it.
Attributed as Mughal, 17 century.

The ring seems to be an Indian feature, has anyone seen this on an Arabic sword?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I agree, Eric is clearly one of the most remarkable archivists, and seems to consistently come up with irrefutable illustrative examples to bring discussions to terms.

Thanks Jim but I am constantly in awe of the huge amount of information people here bring to discussions (including you) on such a wide range of topics. I am always learning something new.

[ariel]

I think this short and quick exchange was a wonderful example of a co-operation leading to the solution of an admittedly small but interesting riddle.

Eric's contribution of an obscure photograph was a crucial argument and we all owe him an applause and a debt of gratitude.

From now on we all know the origin of these peculiar handles. We have learned something new and this is the whole purpose of the existence of this Forum.

Kudos to all!