French musket

fernando · 22nd May 2016, 06:58 PM

Hi James,
I wouldn't be surprised if knowledged members tell you this is not a French musket.
I don't know, the P. KELLY name on the lock plate; is that a bear next to it ?
Unless early models were significantly different from later ones, quite a few details don't check.
Here is a rather complete list of French muskets; pity that it is in french and not illustrated ... but is something to start with. You can exclude details like measurements and so, by comparing them to your example. Also browsing the web using the dates of the models you may find their illustrations:

http://www.academie-des-armes-anciennes.com/amff.html

I hope it helps, until someone comes up with more precise info.

corrado26 · 23rd May 2016, 04:11 PM

As you can see from the drawings of the first French infantry gun M 1717 your gun cannot be French. The lock is totally different and the following French version 1728 has iron barrel rings. I do at the moment not know to which country your piece belongs the less so since the name P.KELLY is not to be found in all reference books but I try to find it out
corrado26

fernando · 23rd May 2016, 08:01 PM

Ir would be interesting to see a picture of the lock with the hammer cocked, so that the 'beast' close to the name is fully shown.

JamesKelly · 23rd May 2016, 09:15 PM

OK, I erred. The PKELLY and standing bear do not have corrosion over the engraving. I would say this was a mid-2oth century addition As was the ramrod, using a 0. 235" steel rod. That is almost exactly 6mm (0.236"). In the USA standard small steel rods would be 6.35mm (0.250"). So the new ramrod was made in Europe, and it does appear that PKELLY and his bear are modern additions.
Right now the lock is partially disassembled in my basement. The rear lock bolt hole has an old bolt broken off in it. There is a new hole drilled and tapped for the current (rear) lock bolt. The stock is not drilled for the old lock bolt hole, but only for the more recent. The lock inlet appears to be cut for this particular lock.
As noted, the barrel is fastened to the stock with pins. There are no barrel bands, as one would expect least on the Model 1728.
The lock is round faced and the barrel half-octagon.
This description fits no standard French musket from 1717 on.
It does look vaguely like the 1680's gun shown on page 35, "The French Trade Gun in North America".
No body but me likes French here. Oh, well.
I did find one, and only one, marking, stamped inside the lock plate. Not clear to me what it is, I will have to experiment with lighting and maybe a smear of black paint to get a decent photo. Stay Tuned.

corrado26 · 24th May 2016, 02:09 PM

It would help to separate the barrel from the stock and eventally find some stamps/marks..........
corrado26

JamesKelly · 24th May 2016, 06:11 PM

Not ready to take the barrel out.
The lock recess looks like this was the original lock used. That is, the recess has not been recut.
There is a stamp on the inside of the lockplate. So far this is the only mark I have found on this musket.

I realize it does not match any standard French musket from Model 1717 on. 1717 was when the French more or less standardized their musket patterns.

Part octagon, part round barrels like on this musket were used on earlier guns.

My thought is that it was made some time between 1680 and 1720.

Well, any thoughts on what this lock mark might be?

fernando · 24th May 2016, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesKelly

... My thought is that it was made some time between 1680 and 1720...

So early, James ?

23rd May 2016, 04:11 PM	#2
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,231	As you can see from the drawings of the first French infantry gun M 1717 your gun cannot be French. The lock is totally different and the following French version 1728 has iron barrel rings. I do at the moment not know to which country your piece belongs the less so since the name P.KELLY is not to be found in all reference books but I try to find it out corrado26 Attached Images

24th May 2016, 06:11 PM	#6
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	Not ready to take the barrel out. The lock recess looks like this was the original lock used. That is, the recess has not been recut. There is a stamp on the inside of the lockplate. So far this is the only mark I have found on this musket. I realize it does not match any standard French musket from Model 1717 on. 1717 was when the French more or less standardized their musket patterns. Part octagon, part round barrels like on this musket were used on earlier guns. My thought is that it was made some time between 1680 and 1720. Well, any thoughts on what this lock mark might be? Attached Images

22nd May 2016, 06:58 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi James, I wouldn't be surprised if knowledged members tell you this is not a French musket. I don't know, the P. KELLY name on the lock plate; is that a bear next to it ? Unless early models were significantly different from later ones, quite a few details don't check. Here is a rather complete list of French muskets; pity that it is in french and not illustrated ... but is something to start with. You can exclude details like measurements and so, by comparing them to your example. Also browsing the web using the dates of the models you may find their illustrations: http://www.academie-des-armes-anciennes.com/amff.html I hope it helps, until someone comes up with more precise info.

23rd May 2016, 08:01 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Ir would be interesting to see a picture of the lock with the hammer cocked, so that the 'beast' close to the name is fully shown.

23rd May 2016, 09:15 PM	#4
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	OK, I erred. The PKELLY and standing bear do not have corrosion over the engraving. I would say this was a mid-2oth century addition As was the ramrod, using a 0. 235" steel rod. That is almost exactly 6mm (0.236"). In the USA standard small steel rods would be 6.35mm (0.250"). So the new ramrod was made in Europe, and it does appear that PKELLY and his bear are modern additions. Right now the lock is partially disassembled in my basement. The rear lock bolt hole has an old bolt broken off in it. There is a new hole drilled and tapped for the current (rear) lock bolt. The stock is not drilled for the old lock bolt hole, but only for the more recent. The lock inlet appears to be cut for this particular lock. As noted, the barrel is fastened to the stock with pins. There are no barrel bands, as one would expect least on the Model 1728. The lock is round faced and the barrel half-octagon. This description fits no standard French musket from 1717 on. It does look vaguely like the 1680's gun shown on page 35, "The French Trade Gun in North America". No body but me likes French here. Oh, well. I did find one, and only one, marking, stamped inside the lock plate. Not clear to me what it is, I will have to experiment with lighting and maybe a smear of black paint to get a decent photo. Stay Tuned.

24th May 2016, 02:09 PM	#5
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,231	It would help to separate the barrel from the stock and eventally find some stamps/marks.......... corrado26