Destroying artwork

[David]

Originally Posted by David

I would also prefer that this thread stay both civil and non-political to avoid a disastrous result in the end.

It's nice to see how well you all are capable of following my advise from post #30.
Frankly i am not particularly in favor of having to slash and burn entire parts of threads because some members are incapable of taking a moment to consider the impact of their words BEFORE they hit the "submit reply" button. Please stick to the issue at hand and leave religion and politics out of your responses. And maybe we should take a closer look at the ACTUAL LAWS as they stand today to avoid some of the panic and hyperbole i see brewing here. These laws govern COMMERCE of ivory, not ownership. As they currently stand they do not sanction the raiding of either museums or private collections. That is not to say that even as they stand these laws aren't problematic. Banning the sale of pre-CITES ivory, and certainly antique ivory, should be taken off the books. Gaining certification for such antique ivory should be made a simple and affordable process. Destruction of these pieces is a despicable act. But as the laws exist today they do NOT empower the U.S. government to raid your home to confiscate your private collection (though if you are dealing in these items a raid could take place that does not distinguish between your sales stock and your personal items). I absolutely agree that collectors should be able to sell off their collections and understand that for many collecting these objects is an investment as well as a passion. That is the aspects of these laws that must be addressed by a unified force of antique collectors. Are there any known petitions on this issue currently circulating? Is anybody doing any kind of organizing around this issue? Because i am pretty sure that collectors just sitting around complaining to each other on internet forums will not change anything at all. The case must be compiled calmly and intelligently with a well thought out process mapping alternatives and examples and presented though proper channels to authorities that might be open to a review of these laws.
If by now collectors are still unaware, here are the rules as they currently exist. Certain aspects of these rules remain unfortunately vague in places:
http://www.fws.gov/international/tra...d-answers.html
As a general practice i do not buy any weapon with ivory dress parts that must come through customs. Currently the risk is far too great and that's a pair of ivory dice i refuse to roll.

[Tim Simmons]

People that want ivory dressed weapons must set up their own regional online exchange and private sales sites. Not cross borders or using auction houses.

What is so dumb of the case here, is why a private sale was not sought in the first place, which is why the auction house and seller have been unbelievably stupid and possibly appallingly greedy.

[Bob A]

. . . the aspects of these laws that must be addressed by a unified force of antique collectors. Are there any known petitions on this issue currently circulating? Is anybody doing any kind of organizing around this issue? Because i am pretty sure that collectors just sitting around complaining to each other on internet forums will not change anything at all. The case must be compiled calmly and intelligently with a well thought out process mapping alternatives and examples and presented though proper channels to authorities that might be open to a review of these laws.

Collectors sitting around complaining may provide the impetus for further, organised action. I hold little hope that the legal nightmares which spring from the CITES treaty can be easily remedied by going through "proper channels" - it is these selfsame channels that developed the "solution" to the problem, at the behest of emotionally overwrought "activists".

The only effective way to remove such obstacles is by generating a similar appeal to the emotions, which can be harnessed to produce a counterforce response.

The relevant question I see here is, will this site provide a node of contact for concerned collectors and curators to attempt some sort of pushback, or will this be denied as unwelcome political speech?

[Sylektis]

http://www.theguardian.com/environme...ivory-poaching
"Philippe Martin the minister for ecology, durable development and energy, added that all ivory seized in France in future would be destroyed, apart from samples kept for scientific or educational purposes and those items that might help trace traffickers."

[David]

Originally Posted by Sylektis

http://www.theguardian.com/environme...ivory-poaching
"Philippe Martin the minister for ecology, durable development and energy, added that all ivory seized in France in future would be destroyed, apart from samples kept for scientific or educational purposes and those items that might help trace traffickers."

It looks like the vast majority of what is being destroyed in this article is recently poached raw ivory with a few statues and such made from it, not antiques that hold a cultural, anthropological or archeological value beyond the materials. I believe as collectors it is the latter we should place our attention on with the intent of creating exceptions to the laws in the case of pre-CITES or antique ivory. I seems it would be a losing battle to try to sway these authorities from this kind of destruction of obviously poached ivory and frankly i don't have a issue with that per se. It is the culturally valuable antiques that i don't want to see destroyed and i believe we have a logical and supportable case to be made for the protection of such specimens from destruction.

[VANDOO]

THERE SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN NO PROVISION FOR OR CONSIDERATION GIVEN TO REGISTERING PRE- BAN IVORY ITEMS TO MAKE THEM LEGAL AND EXEMPT FROM DESTRUCTION. THIS SHOULD BE A EASY AND INEXPENSIVE PROCESS BUT SELDOM IS AND OFTEN IS A FORM OF PUNISHMENT FOR HAVING SUCH BANNED ITEMS AND IS NO GUARANTEE THAT THE ITEMS WILL NOT BE CONFISCATED TO MAKE AN EXAMPLE. THERE ARE ALREADY PLENTY OF CITES LAWS ON THE BOOKS ALLOWING THE RAIDING AND CONFISCATION OF VARIOUS ITEMS FROM PERSONAL COLLECTIONS AND BUSINESSES THAT CAN BE APPLIED. THESE LAWS ARE NOT DESIGNED TO DEAL FAIRLY WITH THE CITIZEN WHO IS CONSIDERED THE ENEMY BUT TO PUNISH AND MAKE AN EXAMPLE WHEN EVER POSSIBLE.
IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE TO ME AS NO ELEPHANTS ARE SAVED THRU SUCH ACTS AND ART IS OFTEN DESTROYED. COLLECTORS AND DEALERS MAY LOSE MILLIONS ON ANTIQUES WHICH SHOULD BE LEGAL. MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF A RARE RESOURCE ARE DESTROYED THAT COULD HAVE BEEN USED TO COMBAT POACHING WHILE ASKING FOR DONATIONS TO FIGHT POACHING AND SAVE THE ELEPHANTS. IT IS LIKELY THE MONEY USED TO FUND THE ORGANIZATIONS WILL EXCEED THAT ACTUALLY USED TO SAVE ELEPHANTS HABITAT OR FROM POACHING.
I TIE UP MY MONEY AND TAKE CARE OF THE THINGS I LIKE AND COLLECT FOR YEARS AND HOPE TO RECOUP MY MONEY BY SELLING THEM TO SOMEONE WHO WILL DO THE SAME AT SOME TIME IN MY LIFE. FOR SUCH A COLLECTION TO LOSE ALL ITS VALUE AND TO DENY ANY POSSIBILITY OF PRESERVING AND PASSING IT ON DUE TO GOVERNMENT REGULATION IS EVIL. ITS ONLY LOGICAL TO DO THINGS THIS WAY IF IT IS INTENDED TO BE EVIL.

[Bob A]

The first step would seem to be to inquire if there are other groups involved in re-working the restrictions on antique ivory. (Musicians come to mind, as I understand the bits of old ivory on such items as violin bows have created difficulties for professional orchestras considering international travel).

If anyone is aware of such activity, this might be a good place to post information, as we marshal our forces toward some sort of reasonable solution.

I think VANDOO's idea of creating some sort of registry, while cumbersome and intrusive in the extreme, might work as an interim concept.

[David]

Originally Posted by Bob A

The relevant question I see here is, will this site provide a node of contact for concerned collectors and curators to attempt some sort of pushback, or will this be denied as unwelcome political speech?

Bob, organizing collectors to create an appropriate the pushback that can addresses this issue in the right places was not the kind of political speech i was concerned about.