Kora

David · 1st May 2016, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I think you are missing the point: nobody here claims that this Kora is anything but decorative.

So the point is simple: yes, it is ceremonial, commemorative, theatrical, decorative, souvenir ( choose any definition). If it participated in the pageant or even sold as a souvenir there , it still has historical value. If not, it is just a clumsy piece of metal not worth much culturally, historically of financially.

No Ariel, i am not missing the point. And here you are contradicting yourself in a single post. You say "nobody is claiming this kora is anything but decorative" and then go right on to again make claim that it is "ceremonial" and "commemorative". Yes Ariel, you are claiming that it is more than just decorative. You just did now and you have consistently throughout this thread. And this has been a key point of the argument that has ensued.
No one has shown here that any pageants or ceremonies took place at a Durbar where a kora of this quality would have been used. Not in photographs or in written word about such Durbars. Your claim that the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is nothing more than double-speak in this context. IMO This type of informal fallacy doesn't really have much practical purpose in our field of study and discussion. Yes, i am quite familiar with the philosophical concept. For those who aren't you can read about it here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
However, in a case were a member comes to us seeking comments on a sword, while we are free to speculate, i believe we are obligated not to confuse the bejeezus out of him with completely unprovable flights of fancy.
Yes, we probably can never know for sure that this sword was not sold in a market at a Durbar, which, i suppose, would add something to its historical value. At the same time we certainly cannot say that it was, nor should we be giving its new owner the impression that this completely unprovable possibility can ever rightfully be presented in a description of this sword, especially when so many other possibilities exist.

ariel · 2nd May 2016, 01:26 AM

David,
I think that continuing this dialogue is fruitless: we are in different dimensions. I am trying to tell you that I agree with what you are saying about the uncertainty, but you hear that I insist on some certainty. Perhaps, I do not explain myself well...

As to more outcomes for a situation with no evidence, there is alway a possibility in the future that such an evidence is going to announce itself: a sale receipt, collection record etc. Till then we are in a limbo. Rather a common situation in any research: the model was not good, the assay sensitivity sucked, the "n" was miscalculated in a power analysis.... As long as the evidence is theoretically obtainable, it will be obtained sooner or later.

You are right: it is not good to plant seeds of unjustified hope. Just as proclaiming that the case is hopeless. In the absense of firm evidence we can only guess. Statistically, chances are ~95% that you are right. Just let's not forget about those little nasty 5% that this Kora might have been sold for real as a memento of the Great Durbar:-) I have seen enough cases of mild bladder infection progressing into full renal failure, and just a week ago I had a long phone conversation with a good colleague of mine, a very well-known medical researcher who had been found to have inoperable pancreatic cancer about 20 years ago... At a ripe age of 80+ he had been charged by our Society to develop a certain policy, and I am his sidekick. He drives me hard:-)))

That is exactly how I wanted to present the case to the owner. If I phrased it badly, it's my fault. But the meaning was there.

With best wishes,
Ariel

mahratt · 2nd May 2016, 03:55 AM

It's nice that we found out that the discussed sword - it's just a souvenir.. And most likely produced in the early 20th century. And the distinguished Berkley provided evidence of this.

Jim McDougall · 2nd May 2016, 05:22 AM

Very nicely explained Ariel, and nicely noted as well in accord Mahratt!!
Berkeley, beautifully done!!!
You deserve the Nobel Peace Prize here!!!!!!!

2nd May 2016, 01:26 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	David, I think that continuing this dialogue is fruitless: we are in different dimensions. I am trying to tell you that I agree with what you are saying about the uncertainty, but you hear that I insist on some certainty. Perhaps, I do not explain myself well... As to more outcomes for a situation with no evidence, there is alway a possibility in the future that such an evidence is going to announce itself: a sale receipt, collection record etc. Till then we are in a limbo. Rather a common situation in any research: the model was not good, the assay sensitivity sucked, the "n" was miscalculated in a power analysis.... As long as the evidence is theoretically obtainable, it will be obtained sooner or later. You are right: it is not good to plant seeds of unjustified hope. Just as proclaiming that the case is hopeless. In the absense of firm evidence we can only guess. Statistically, chances are ~95% that you are right. Just let's not forget about those little nasty 5% that this Kora might have been sold for real as a memento of the Great Durbar:-) I have seen enough cases of mild bladder infection progressing into full renal failure, and just a week ago I had a long phone conversation with a good colleague of mine, a very well-known medical researcher who had been found to have inoperable pancreatic cancer about 20 years ago... At a ripe age of 80+ he had been charged by our Society to develop a certain policy, and I am his sidekick. He drives me hard:-))) That is exactly how I wanted to present the case to the owner. If I phrased it badly, it's my fault. But the meaning was there. With best wishes, Ariel

2nd May 2016, 03:55 AM	#3
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	It's nice that we found out that the discussed sword - it's just a souvenir.. And most likely produced in the early 20th century. And the distinguished Berkley provided evidence of this.

2nd May 2016, 05:22 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	Very nicely explained Ariel, and nicely noted as well in accord Mahratt!! Berkeley, beautifully done!!! You deserve the Nobel Peace Prize here!!!!!!!