Kora

estcrh · 1st May 2016, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Now I know where the idea for the Pinhead from "Hellraiser" came from.

My son, who is a horror movie encyclopedia, also mentioned a Russian movie by some budding Fellini named Andrei Iskanov titled "Nails".
Seems hammering nails into the head might be a national Siberian pastime.
You know, a bottle of vodka, a pickle, some body piercing with 9 inch brights ... and off we go to get us a bear:-))))

There is a precedent for spikes being used against animals in India, there are examples of spiked doors being used to keep elephants from breaking them down and below is a picture of what is said to be a spiked ball used to hang in the door of elephant stables to keep the elephants from leaving. The "executioners armor" could have been originally for tiger hunting or fighting with wild animals, a known sport in some parts of India.

David · 1st May 2016, 06:32 PM

You guys are cracking me up with all these photos of spiky things.
It seems that the prevailing wisdom here is that if we can prove that there really was were spiky armor (and walls and balls) in India at the time we can prove what, exactly, about the kora presented here???

I find it amazing that this image of the "High Executioner" in his spiked armor is creating so much controversy here.
FACT: This image of the "High Executioner" was indeed published in The Wide World Magazine edition of June, 1898. So i am sorry Oliver, your source for this photo is simply wrong. It may have been printed later in National Geographic and purported to be from the 1903 Delhi Durbar, but that information would be completely incorrect, barring the possibility of a time a traveling photographer

. There is just no way that it could have been taken at the Delhi Durbar in 1903. Ariel started this whole Durbar red herring early on in this thread due to what i can only suspect was a misunderstanding of what was presented in Oliver's book and it has, IMVHO, squashed any real analysis of this kora ever since, becoming little more than a rematch for old adversaries to trade barbs and sarcasm. I have now looked at many very interesting photos of these Durbar spectacles and read all the offerings of speculation from all sides and have still not seen one single shred of evidence that could possibly link this kora to that historic event, either as a ceremonial weapon carried in processions or even as a cheap souvenir bought in one of the bazaars that would be surrounding a grand Durbar.
Look, i realize this is not an academic, scholarly forum, despite the fact that we do indeed have academics and scholars in our membership. But this whole Durbar thing is just and incredible flight of fancy as far as i can tell. Speculation is fine, but it needs some basis of justification. Instead we are spending our time debating a photo of a guy in a porcupine suit of armor and trying to connect it falsely to the Delhi Durbar as some kind of proof that this kora could still be a ceremonial weapon from the same Durbar that this executioner photo is NOT from because if it is (which it is NOT) then it somehow proves that cheap, decorative weapons might also be used in ceremonies at the Durbar??? Welcome to bizarre world.

Let me remind everyone of the what Oliver did write when he appeared briefly in this thread.
"Delhi Durbar weapons are usually very well made, but not always. Some were actually carried or worn to the Durbar itself by the nobility. Others were carried by lesser attendees. And still others were offered for sale to guests to commemorate their visit, either in the bazaars or hotels; the range of quality from one to the next is enormous."
"Durbar weapons are usually very well made..." It is amazing to me that some people could then latch onto the "but not always" and use that as some justification that this kora could possible be anything other than a wall hanger.
I must say that this thread has been very entertaining and in many ways informative, but i do feel that it has failed in it's obligation to inform the original poster anything of much use about the kora he brought forward for discussion.

mahratt · 1st May 2016, 07:10 PM

David, thank you for a reasonable words.

Berkley · 1st May 2016, 07:42 PM

The workmanship on the OP’s kora is typical of Indian decorative “weapons” sold over a period of many years. An illustrative group is from the section headed “Military Decorations” in the 1927 Francis Bannerman catalog.
A “Goorka knife” from the same source exhibits characteristic decoration and fanciful description.
Blades are invariably made from flat stock with minimal taper.

Compare the OPs "kora" with a genuine Indian sacrificial kora on Artzi's site:LINK

Jim McDougall · 1st May 2016, 08:38 PM

Berkley, thank you ! Those are exactly the kukris I was thinking of which are so much like this kora. The BANNERMAN catalog!!! This seller of the early 20th century is an incredible source of so many collectable weapons of shall we say, more affordable stature, which permeated collections by the 50s and 60s. These were the early glory days of collecting where the arms we now can often only dream of owning were around in huge numbers, and very affordable.

This actually quite nicely puts this thread well back on track!
While we have had many fascinating and intriguing entries which digressed into many areas, they have been most informative, and again I thank Estcrh for this wealth of illustrations and data!

The nature of the kora originally posted here has been the point of contention, and while it remains unclear whether it was a 'souvenier' of a durbar or simply one hawked in bazaars at another time cannot be conclusively known.

It is important to realize that in assessing or categorizing weapons being studied or collected, often the term 'of the type' is used.

The term 'ceremonial' here has implied that a kora 'of this form and decoration might have been carried by a participant in the durbars.
While that may be plausible, it cannot be proven.
As Ariel has noted, and in citing Oliver's notes, there was certainly a distinct 'range' of quality in weapons used and otherwise available in these gala events. The quality of this particular example would be the best indicator of its place in that range, and how it may have been placed in the scope of a durbar.......if in fact related at all.

Ceremonial also describes the character of SIMILAR examples without this decoration and usually of sound quality used in sacrificial rituals in Bengal.
That description simply refers to the TYPE of sword, and not necessarily applicable to THIS sword in that sense. This is clearly not such a sword but something more embellished.

ariel · 1st May 2016, 07:40 PM

David,
I think you are missing the point: nobody here claims that this Kora is anything but decorative.
The Durbars, especially the 1903 one were giant fairs, with real Rajas and their legitimate retinues , but also with vast logistical and commercial establishments and opportunities.
Here is a text from Wiki about Lord Curzon brilliant administrative achievements:
"The two full weeks of festivities were devised in meticulous detail by Lord Curzon.[5] It was a dazzling display of pomp, power and split second timing. Neither the earlier Delhi Durbar of 1877, nor the later Durbar held there in 1911, could match the pageantry of Lord Curzon’s 1903 festivities. In a few short months at the end of 1902, a deserted plain was transformed into an elaborate tented city, complete with temporary light railway to bring crowds of spectators out from Delhi, a post office with its own stamp, telephone and telegraphic facilities, a variety of stores, a Police force with specially designed uniform, hospital, magistrate’s court and complex sanitation, drainage and electric light installations. Souvenir guide books were sold and maps of the camping ground distributed. Marketing opportunities were craftily exploited. Special medals known as Delhi Durbar Medals, were struck, firework displays, exhibitions and glamorous dances held."

If we accept veracity of Oliver's information about the pattern of decorative work ( and I have no doubt he knows what he is talking about), as well as the inevitable range of quality, the plausibility of this Kora coming from the rock-bottom layer of the Durbar " marketing opportunities ...craftily exploited" becomes not far-fetched.
Not finding it among long-distance images of the throngs of participants and visitors is not an argument that it was not there ( or was not sold from some peripheral bazaar stand): I am certain that even some Rajas cannot be found on these "Where is Elmo?" photographs.

Once again: absense of evidence is not evidence of absense.

So the point is simple: yes, it is ceremonial, commemorative, theatrical, decorative, souvenir ( choose any definition). If it participated in the pageant or even sold as a souvenir there , it still has historical value. If not, it is just a clumsy piece of metal not worth much culturally, historically of financially.

The hooker is, we shall never know for certain.......

David · 1st May 2016, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I think you are missing the point: nobody here claims that this Kora is anything but decorative.

So the point is simple: yes, it is ceremonial, commemorative, theatrical, decorative, souvenir ( choose any definition). If it participated in the pageant or even sold as a souvenir there , it still has historical value. If not, it is just a clumsy piece of metal not worth much culturally, historically of financially.

No Ariel, i am not missing the point. And here you are contradicting yourself in a single post. You say "nobody is claiming this kora is anything but decorative" and then go right on to again make claim that it is "ceremonial" and "commemorative". Yes Ariel, you are claiming that it is more than just decorative. You just did now and you have consistently throughout this thread. And this has been a key point of the argument that has ensued.
No one has shown here that any pageants or ceremonies took place at a Durbar where a kora of this quality would have been used. Not in photographs or in written word about such Durbars. Your claim that the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is nothing more than double-speak in this context. IMO This type of informal fallacy doesn't really have much practical purpose in our field of study and discussion. Yes, i am quite familiar with the philosophical concept. For those who aren't you can read about it here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
However, in a case were a member comes to us seeking comments on a sword, while we are free to speculate, i believe we are obligated not to confuse the bejeezus out of him with completely unprovable flights of fancy.
Yes, we probably can never know for sure that this sword was not sold in a market at a Durbar, which, i suppose, would add something to its historical value. At the same time we certainly cannot say that it was, nor should we be giving its new owner the impression that this completely unprovable possibility can ever rightfully be presented in a description of this sword, especially when so many other possibilities exist.

ariel · 2nd May 2016, 01:26 AM

David,
I think that continuing this dialogue is fruitless: we are in different dimensions. I am trying to tell you that I agree with what you are saying about the uncertainty, but you hear that I insist on some certainty. Perhaps, I do not explain myself well...

As to more outcomes for a situation with no evidence, there is alway a possibility in the future that such an evidence is going to announce itself: a sale receipt, collection record etc. Till then we are in a limbo. Rather a common situation in any research: the model was not good, the assay sensitivity sucked, the "n" was miscalculated in a power analysis.... As long as the evidence is theoretically obtainable, it will be obtained sooner or later.

You are right: it is not good to plant seeds of unjustified hope. Just as proclaiming that the case is hopeless. In the absense of firm evidence we can only guess. Statistically, chances are ~95% that you are right. Just let's not forget about those little nasty 5% that this Kora might have been sold for real as a memento of the Great Durbar:-) I have seen enough cases of mild bladder infection progressing into full renal failure, and just a week ago I had a long phone conversation with a good colleague of mine, a very well-known medical researcher who had been found to have inoperable pancreatic cancer about 20 years ago... At a ripe age of 80+ he had been charged by our Society to develop a certain policy, and I am his sidekick. He drives me hard:-)))

That is exactly how I wanted to present the case to the owner. If I phrased it badly, it's my fault. But the meaning was there.

With best wishes,
Ariel

mahratt · 2nd May 2016, 03:55 AM

It's nice that we found out that the discussed sword - it's just a souvenir.. And most likely produced in the early 20th century. And the distinguished Berkley provided evidence of this.

Jim McDougall · 2nd May 2016, 05:22 AM

Very nicely explained Ariel, and nicely noted as well in accord Mahratt!!
Berkeley, beautifully done!!!
You deserve the Nobel Peace Prize here!!!!!!!

1st May 2016, 07:42 PM	#4
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	The workmanship on the OP’s kora is typical of Indian decorative “weapons” sold over a period of many years. An illustrative group is from the section headed “Military Decorations” in the 1927 Francis Bannerman catalog. A “Goorka knife” from the same source exhibits characteristic decoration and fanciful description. Blades are invariably made from flat stock with minimal taper. Compare the OPs "kora" with a genuine Indian sacrificial kora on Artzi's site:LINK Attached Images

1st May 2016, 06:32 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	You guys are cracking me up with all these photos of spiky things. It seems that the prevailing wisdom here is that if we can prove that there really was were spiky armor (and walls and balls) in India at the time we can prove what, exactly, about the kora presented here??? I find it amazing that this image of the "High Executioner" in his spiked armor is creating so much controversy here. FACT: This image of the "High Executioner" was indeed published in The Wide World Magazine edition of June, 1898. So i am sorry Oliver, your source for this photo is simply wrong. It may have been printed later in National Geographic and purported to be from the 1903 Delhi Durbar, but that information would be completely incorrect, barring the possibility of a time a traveling photographer . There is just no way that it could have been taken at the Delhi Durbar in 1903. Ariel started this whole Durbar red herring early on in this thread due to what i can only suspect was a misunderstanding of what was presented in Oliver's book and it has, IMVHO, squashed any real analysis of this kora ever since, becoming little more than a rematch for old adversaries to trade barbs and sarcasm. I have now looked at many very interesting photos of these Durbar spectacles and read all the offerings of speculation from all sides and have still not seen one single shred of evidence that could possibly link this kora to that historic event, either as a ceremonial weapon carried in processions or even as a cheap souvenir bought in one of the bazaars that would be surrounding a grand Durbar. Look, i realize this is not an academic, scholarly forum, despite the fact that we do indeed have academics and scholars in our membership. But this whole Durbar thing is just and incredible flight of fancy as far as i can tell. Speculation is fine, but it needs some basis of justification. Instead we are spending our time debating a photo of a guy in a porcupine suit of armor and trying to connect it falsely to the Delhi Durbar as some kind of proof that this kora could still be a ceremonial weapon from the same Durbar that this executioner photo is NOT from because if it is (which it is NOT) then it somehow proves that cheap, decorative weapons might also be used in ceremonies at the Durbar??? Welcome to bizarre world. Let me remind everyone of the what Oliver did write when he appeared briefly in this thread. "Delhi Durbar weapons are usually very well made, but not always. Some were actually carried or worn to the Durbar itself by the nobility. Others were carried by lesser attendees. And still others were offered for sale to guests to commemorate their visit, either in the bazaars or hotels; the range of quality from one to the next is enormous." "Durbar weapons are usually very well made..." It is amazing to me that some people could then latch onto the "but not always" and use that as some justification that this kora could possible be anything other than a wall hanger. I must say that this thread has been very entertaining and in many ways informative, but i do feel that it has failed in it's obligation to inform the original poster anything of much use about the kora he brought forward for discussion.

1st May 2016, 07:10 PM	#3
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	David, thank you for a reasonable words.

1st May 2016, 08:38 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Berkley, thank you ! Those are exactly the kukris I was thinking of which are so much like this kora. The BANNERMAN catalog!!! This seller of the early 20th century is an incredible source of so many collectable weapons of shall we say, more affordable stature, which permeated collections by the 50s and 60s. These were the early glory days of collecting where the arms we now can often only dream of owning were around in huge numbers, and very affordable. This actually quite nicely puts this thread well back on track! While we have had many fascinating and intriguing entries which digressed into many areas, they have been most informative, and again I thank Estcrh for this wealth of illustrations and data! The nature of the kora originally posted here has been the point of contention, and while it remains unclear whether it was a 'souvenier' of a durbar or simply one hawked in bazaars at another time cannot be conclusively known. It is important to realize that in assessing or categorizing weapons being studied or collected, often the term 'of the type' is used. The term 'ceremonial' here has implied that a kora 'of this form and decoration might have been carried by a participant in the durbars. While that may be plausible, it cannot be proven. As Ariel has noted, and in citing Oliver's notes, there was certainly a distinct 'range' of quality in weapons used and otherwise available in these gala events. The quality of this particular example would be the best indicator of its place in that range, and how it may have been placed in the scope of a durbar.......if in fact related at all. Ceremonial also describes the character of SIMILAR examples without this decoration and usually of sound quality used in sacrificial rituals in Bengal. That description simply refers to the TYPE of sword, and not necessarily applicable to THIS sword in that sense. This is clearly not such a sword but something more embellished.

1st May 2016, 07:40 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	David, I think you are missing the point: nobody here claims that this Kora is anything but decorative. The Durbars, especially the 1903 one were giant fairs, with real Rajas and their legitimate retinues , but also with vast logistical and commercial establishments and opportunities. Here is a text from Wiki about Lord Curzon brilliant administrative achievements: "The two full weeks of festivities were devised in meticulous detail by Lord Curzon.[5] It was a dazzling display of pomp, power and split second timing. Neither the earlier Delhi Durbar of 1877, nor the later Durbar held there in 1911, could match the pageantry of Lord Curzon’s 1903 festivities. In a few short months at the end of 1902, a deserted plain was transformed into an elaborate tented city, complete with temporary light railway to bring crowds of spectators out from Delhi, a post office with its own stamp, telephone and telegraphic facilities, a variety of stores, a Police force with specially designed uniform, hospital, magistrate’s court and complex sanitation, drainage and electric light installations. Souvenir guide books were sold and maps of the camping ground distributed. Marketing opportunities were craftily exploited. Special medals known as Delhi Durbar Medals, were struck, firework displays, exhibitions and glamorous dances held." If we accept veracity of Oliver's information about the pattern of decorative work ( and I have no doubt he knows what he is talking about), as well as the inevitable range of quality, the plausibility of this Kora coming from the rock-bottom layer of the Durbar " marketing opportunities ...craftily exploited" becomes not far-fetched. Not finding it among long-distance images of the throngs of participants and visitors is not an argument that it was not there ( or was not sold from some peripheral bazaar stand): I am certain that even some Rajas cannot be found on these "Where is Elmo?" photographs. Once again: absense of evidence is not evidence of absense. So the point is simple: yes, it is ceremonial, commemorative, theatrical, decorative, souvenir ( choose any definition). If it participated in the pageant or even sold as a souvenir there , it still has historical value. If not, it is just a clumsy piece of metal not worth much culturally, historically of financially. The hooker is, we shall never know for certain.......

2nd May 2016, 01:26 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	David, I think that continuing this dialogue is fruitless: we are in different dimensions. I am trying to tell you that I agree with what you are saying about the uncertainty, but you hear that I insist on some certainty. Perhaps, I do not explain myself well... As to more outcomes for a situation with no evidence, there is alway a possibility in the future that such an evidence is going to announce itself: a sale receipt, collection record etc. Till then we are in a limbo. Rather a common situation in any research: the model was not good, the assay sensitivity sucked, the "n" was miscalculated in a power analysis.... As long as the evidence is theoretically obtainable, it will be obtained sooner or later. You are right: it is not good to plant seeds of unjustified hope. Just as proclaiming that the case is hopeless. In the absense of firm evidence we can only guess. Statistically, chances are ~95% that you are right. Just let's not forget about those little nasty 5% that this Kora might have been sold for real as a memento of the Great Durbar:-) I have seen enough cases of mild bladder infection progressing into full renal failure, and just a week ago I had a long phone conversation with a good colleague of mine, a very well-known medical researcher who had been found to have inoperable pancreatic cancer about 20 years ago... At a ripe age of 80+ he had been charged by our Society to develop a certain policy, and I am his sidekick. He drives me hard:-))) That is exactly how I wanted to present the case to the owner. If I phrased it badly, it's my fault. But the meaning was there. With best wishes, Ariel

2nd May 2016, 03:55 AM	#9
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	It's nice that we found out that the discussed sword - it's just a souvenir.. And most likely produced in the early 20th century. And the distinguished Berkley provided evidence of this.

2nd May 2016, 05:22 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Very nicely explained Ariel, and nicely noted as well in accord Mahratt!! Berkeley, beautifully done!!! You deserve the Nobel Peace Prize here!!!!!!!