On the Origins of the so-called Berber Sabres

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All, With a number of threads with related themes I have chosen this one as the more focussed on the subject of these weapons to launch a querry on the links between form...between Moroccan and Zanzibari and indeed between the style that sems to have developed in the Americas particularly around the Caribbean carried there by war and trade not least between Spain and the Philipines via Accupulco etc...
My first observation is combined with a quite early time scale... That of the trained bands of London; ...A sword on the waist of Captain Tobias Blosse in the mid 1600 s clearly of the hilt style Moroccan. Showing also a photo of the Moroccan Style. Both pictures from the late Antony Norths "Islamic Arms and Armour"

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All..I have a few pictures to add ...Mahomet Abogli Moroccan ambassador to King George in 1725...with the traditional Moroccan Sword... and a court painting illustrating similar weapons in the period..I post here for interest the Butin chart of the Zanzibar region ...

So what, how, why, when, was the linkup??

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[machinist]

First of all an apology, the pic I submitted as a Yucatan ocellated turkey is a photoshop of a North American turkey, the real ocellated turkey still has a appearance that could influence these shell guards (see pic below) but I should have been more diligent in my research. I have sent Andy a PM since he seems interested on the subject.

Now the good news, I found a "Berber sword" at the local gunshow, the sheath is as good as you will find with the stitching tight, no splits in the leather and some decorative dye remaining. The blade is like many of these, a re-purposed wide fullered blade with a cusped tip. the point is more extreme than any I have seen. It seems rather fragile.

The handle is held together with copper rivets and heavily decorated with brass, some unidentifiable gray metal and two pieces that look like German silver. The gray metal looks like epoxy or plastic but I scratched a small area with a pinpoint and it is silvery metal underneath.

There are the initials BF as well as what looks like a B on the other side. One of the Berber sabers on the sold section of Artzi's website has a set of initials similarly placed (JR) which brings up the likelihood of Roman letters being used on the handle of a north African sword.

I find the difference between the measured and calm decoration of the scabbard and the crazy hodge-podge of the handle striking, I wonder if these were owner modified.

[machinist]

More pics

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by machinist

Now the good news, I found a "Berber sword" at the local gunshow

There are the initials BF as well as what looks like a B on the other side. One of the Berber sabers on the sold section of Artzi's website has a set of initials similarly placed (JR) which brings up the likelihood of Roman letters being used on the handle of a north African sword.

Congratulation your sword is absolutly gorgeous!!

I read a lot of pages on this forum on the so-called Berber swords, Spanish and Central America...
I think the Berber swords are Berbers point.
The similarity with Spanish colonial swords is obvious, the Western Sahara was a Spanish colonial territory.
Your sword is likely from this area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Sahara

About the Roman letters, they are not incommon in North Africa and countries colonized by Europeans. I have seen a lot on Algerian Moukhala. They were all from the very late 19th c. or early 20th c.
I will place your sword in this range, even if the blade is maybe earlier.

Best,
Kubur

[Jim McDougall]

Rick......I think we're goin' SHAVER KOOL on this one!!!!

Seriously, it is wonderful to see these amazing threads stay alive, and constantly updated with new examples and information!!!

Machinist, thank you so much for staying with the research, and please keep us apprised of Andy's responses on this topic......those curious hilts most definitely deserve continued research.

This example you just got is a beauty! and I agree with Kubur, the nature of the decoration surely does suggest Moroccan character.

What is most curious on these 'Berber' sabres is that they are actually machete type swords which seem to be from Central American regions. The preponderance of examples characteristically are from Spanish colonial areas, often in tropical Mexico, as well as Cuba, Central America, and perhaps parts of South America (though not aware yet of actual provenance or examples).
As Tirri has noted, many of these ended up in Spanish colonies in the early 20th century during insurgences and other dynamic events. This is probably how we have arrived at the 'Berber' sabre appellation.

One feature often present on these, as well as the shell guard examples is the almost common presence of British blades on them, most often of the M1796 light cavalry pattern, and reprofiled on the 'Berber' types.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Rick......I think we're goin' SHAVER KOOL on this one!!!!

Seriously, it is wonderful to see these amazing threads stay alive, and constantly updated with new examples and information!!!

Machinist, thank you so much for staying with the research, and please keep us apprised of Andy's responses on this topic......those curious hilts most definitely deserve continued research.

This example you just got is a beauty! and I agree with Kubur, the nature of the decoration surely does suggest Moroccan character.

What is most curious on these 'Berber' sabres is that they are actually machete type swords which seem to be from Central American regions. The preponderance of examples characteristically are from Spanish colonial areas, often in tropical Mexico, as well as Cuba, Central America, and perhaps parts of South America (though not aware yet of actual provenance or examples).
As Tirri has noted, many of these ended up in Spanish colonies in the early 20th century during insurgences and other dynamic events. This is probably how we have arrived at the 'Berber' sabre appellation.

One feature often present on these, as well as the shell guard examples is the almost common presence of British blades on them, most often of the M1796 light cavalry pattern, and reprofiled on the 'Berber' types.

Salaams Jim, As noted previously; It is curious how there are linkages on these weapons to the Turkey...in the hilt and it seems to me in the curved at right angles, base of the scabbard... Is that not a beak? In addition I note (.) What could be a moon with dot between motif seen on many hilts of this type perhaps taken from the Turkey plumage? see #64

Regarding the Hilt, Is this the original Nimcha hilt or did the Nimcha hilt predate this?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

What is the relationship in the 90 degree bend in the scabbard to Ethiopian style? at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21715