How did they measure sword blades?

estcrh · 26th April 2016, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

3: I am very sure, that in Japan the length of blade is measured along the back edge (1 Shaku= 1 foot; 1 Sun ~ 1.25 inch).

Roland, on Japanese swords the cutting edge is the same as the measurement used for blade length (nagasa), it is a straight line. That is how I measure all of my swords as well.

Quote:

The blade length (nagasa) is measured in a straight line from the mune-machi (back blade notch) to the tip of the kissaki (point).

Jens Nordlunde · 26th April 2016, 06:26 PM

Could be that the Japanese did measure in a straight line - but did the Indians do this as well?
Could be, that other culturers did measurer in a diffent way, but what I am especially interested in is the way the Indians did it.

A. G. Maisey · 26th April 2016, 11:48 PM

Indian and other general ethnographic weaponry is not my field, fifty years ago it was, but then I began to specialise.

I most humbly suggest that the modern Western European idea of measurement of a weapon is not the same, nor does it have the same objectives as the medieval and archaic idea of Indian measurement of a weapon.

As a collector, or even a student of Indian weaponry one may decide upon a method of measurement that will produce a number which relates to a universal standard. This will satisfy the objective of present day student or collector:- he wants to know how long the blade is.

Based upon transmitted medieval mores which still exist outside of India, and for all I know, perhaps within India as well, the objective of a medieval Indian when he measured a blade was not to relate the length of the blade to a universal standard, but rather to an esoteric standard, and by doing so ensuring that the weapon was suitable for his personal use.

In a field other than Indian weaponry I have very often offered the opinion that it is impossible to understand a cultural artifact (ie, weapon) in the absence of an understanding of the way in which the people of that culture thought at the time the cultural artifact was produced. I rather think that perhaps the same might be true of Indian swords.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th April 2016, 02:37 AM

Salaams All...I wrote an article based on a book that set down the different weights and measures in the Souk in Oman...It is bewildering !! I am not sure if an Indian sword was a standard length or if it had a variety of lengths to chose from .. each sword would be peculiar to its owner would it not?...I note that Nimcha meaning half sword could be long or short..but offer that only in passing. I don't know.

Would a sword not be fitted to the height of the wearer so that it hung at the waist in the proper manner... Did the officer requiring a sword not get fitted at the Military Officers Uniform outfitters for this reason?.... Again I dont know...

Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=Muttrah+souk at post 7 for the variation in weights and measures and add to that for India the Barley Corn situation...

"And once you have mastered that lot, you must start on the difference between Muscat maund, which equals 24 kiyas, each kiyas representing the weight of 6 MTD., and an Omani maund which equals 24 kiyas, each kiyas representing the weight of 6 Omani baizas, remembering that 5 Omani baizas are the same weight as 1 MTD. and that in arabic a maund is a mun; 200 Muscat maunds = 1 bahhar, which is the same weight both on the coast and in the interior but varies when applied to different produce, a bahhar of salt or firewood being equivalent to 400 Muscati maunds".

During pre-Akbar period, weights and measure system varied from region to region, commodity to commodity, and rural to urban areas. The weights were based on the weight of various seeds (specially the wheat berry and Ratti) and lengths were based of the length of arms and width of fingers. Akbar realized a need for a uniform system. He elected the barley corn. Unfortunately, this did not replace the existing system. Instead, it just added another system.

For an utterly confusing view of how this added up please see http://www.indiacurry.com/Miscel/ind...htsmeasure.htm

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Helleri · 2nd May 2016, 02:00 AM

Thinking about it more. the easiest measurement to get regarding along a curvature, would be to hold a the base of a blade against the edge of a flat surface (like a table) and roll the blade along it's edge to the tip. Then simply mark where the tip is from the edge of the flat surface. This would trace the curvature of the object along the flat surface perfectly as long as you didn't pull or push the blade. It would be easy to get a distance you could mark and then measure for mean distance between the tip and bade like this as well.

You would only find on issue with this method when getting to measuring the spine. And I have yet to find a way to measure a spine that isn't either involved or prone to errors and inconsistency. It's not an easy measurement to take compared to others. I would think that if you had to say which way of measuring it is least useful and least important. It would be measuring long the spine. Not just because it's a cumbersome and sometime annoying thing to do. But because it gives you the least valuable information. The curvature obviously matters most at the edge. As does the length of cutting edge that there is. And the reach matters. But the curve of the back side? Not really.

estcrh · 3rd May 2016, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helleri

Thinking about it more. the easiest measurement to get regarding along a curvature, would be to hold a the base of a blade against the edge of a flat surface (like a table) and roll the blade along it's edge to the tip. Then simply mark where the tip is from the edge of the flat surface. This would trace the curvature of the object along the flat surface perfectly as long as you didn't pull or push the blade.

I used this method on a sword with quite a bit of curve, the pulwar below has a measurement of 29.25 inches (74.29 cm) when measured across the blade tip to were the cutting edge meets the point of the langet, when using your method of rolling the blade on a flat surface from the point of the langet to the blade tip I got a measurement of 31.25 inches (79.39 cm).

27th April 2016, 02:37 AM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams All...I wrote an article based on a book that set down the different weights and measures in the Souk in Oman...It is bewildering !! I am not sure if an Indian sword was a standard length or if it had a variety of lengths to chose from .. each sword would be peculiar to its owner would it not?...I note that Nimcha meaning half sword could be long or short..but offer that only in passing. I don't know. Would a sword not be fitted to the height of the wearer so that it hung at the waist in the proper manner... Did the officer requiring a sword not get fitted at the Military Officers Uniform outfitters for this reason?.... Again I dont know... Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=Muttrah+souk at post 7 for the variation in weights and measures and add to that for India the Barley Corn situation... "And once you have mastered that lot, you must start on the difference between Muscat maund, which equals 24 kiyas, each kiyas representing the weight of 6 MTD., and an Omani maund which equals 24 kiyas, each kiyas representing the weight of 6 Omani baizas, remembering that 5 Omani baizas are the same weight as 1 MTD. and that in arabic a maund is a mun; 200 Muscat maunds = 1 bahhar, which is the same weight both on the coast and in the interior but varies when applied to different produce, a bahhar of salt or firewood being equivalent to 400 Muscati maunds". During pre-Akbar period, weights and measure system varied from region to region, commodity to commodity, and rural to urban areas. The weights were based on the weight of various seeds (specially the wheat berry and Ratti) and lengths were based of the length of arms and width of fingers. Akbar realized a need for a uniform system. He elected the barley corn. Unfortunately, this did not replace the existing system. Instead, it just added another system. For an utterly confusing view of how this added up please see http://www.indiacurry.com/Miscel/ind...htsmeasure.htm Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 27th April 2016 at 02:50 AM.

26th April 2016, 06:26 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Could be that the Japanese did measure in a straight line - but did the Indians do this as well? Could be, that other culturers did measurer in a diffent way, but what I am especially interested in is the way the Indians did it.

26th April 2016, 11:48 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Indian and other general ethnographic weaponry is not my field, fifty years ago it was, but then I began to specialise. I most humbly suggest that the modern Western European idea of measurement of a weapon is not the same, nor does it have the same objectives as the medieval and archaic idea of Indian measurement of a weapon. As a collector, or even a student of Indian weaponry one may decide upon a method of measurement that will produce a number which relates to a universal standard. This will satisfy the objective of present day student or collector:- he wants to know how long the blade is. Based upon transmitted medieval mores which still exist outside of India, and for all I know, perhaps within India as well, the objective of a medieval Indian when he measured a blade was not to relate the length of the blade to a universal standard, but rather to an esoteric standard, and by doing so ensuring that the weapon was suitable for his personal use. In a field other than Indian weaponry I have very often offered the opinion that it is impossible to understand a cultural artifact (ie, weapon) in the absence of an understanding of the way in which the people of that culture thought at the time the cultural artifact was produced. I rather think that perhaps the same might be true of Indian swords.

2nd May 2016, 02:00 AM	#5
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	Thinking about it more. the easiest measurement to get regarding along a curvature, would be to hold a the base of a blade against the edge of a flat surface (like a table) and roll the blade along it's edge to the tip. Then simply mark where the tip is from the edge of the flat surface. This would trace the curvature of the object along the flat surface perfectly as long as you didn't pull or push the blade. It would be easy to get a distance you could mark and then measure for mean distance between the tip and bade like this as well. You would only find on issue with this method when getting to measuring the spine. And I have yet to find a way to measure a spine that isn't either involved or prone to errors and inconsistency. It's not an easy measurement to take compared to others. I would think that if you had to say which way of measuring it is least useful and least important. It would be measuring long the spine. Not just because it's a cumbersome and sometime annoying thing to do. But because it gives you the least valuable information. The curvature obviously matters most at the edge. As does the length of cutting edge that there is. And the reach matters. But the curve of the back side? Not really.