swords of Mohammed, but what about...

Battara · 11th January 2005, 11:31 PM

Here is an 19c Ottoman battle flag that has the "sword of the Prophet" on it. It was auctioned at Christies last year:

Federico · 12th January 2005, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Here is an 19c Ottoman battle flag that has the "sword of the Prophet" on it. It was auctioned at Christies last year:

So that is the split sword of David. Thank you so very much Battara. I have a kris with a silver inlay with this symbol, and it always had me scratching my head as to why they would inlay a figure of a man. Unfortunately a good portion of the inlay has fallen out.

erlikhan · 12th January 2005, 03:50 PM

There is the flag of the 16th.century Turkish pirate and later naval commander Barbaros Hayrettin in naval museum-Istanbul. It has the same symbol.

Yannis · 12th January 2005, 05:35 PM

Barbaros Hayrettin a.k.a. Barbarossa or Khayr ad-Din. A great Greek indeed!

Just joking...

This great commander was born in Lesbos island and some sources claim he was born christian. I dont say it is a fact, and I dont start a flame. He served the Sultan and he was a genius admiral.
His major opponent was also famous: Andrea Doria, an italian legend

erlikhan · 12th January 2005, 07:33 PM

Won Preveze war against Doria's navy in 1538 making Ottomans the only authority in Mediterennean till 1571 Inebahti war. His father was a "timarli sipahi" named "Yakup" from Eceabat-Canakkale and being granted soil in Midilli (Lesbos), and her mother is told as a christian named Katalina according in some western sources, me not knowing if based on objective info or not. You should have read from them. You probably know what" timarli sipahi" is. Ignoring very rare exceptions, as law only Turkish soldiers (not christian conversions like janissaries, or other muslim tribes) who took role in conquering new lands were granted with some soil with people and villages on it, being responsible to take care of that land and collect tax, and train and feed soldiers given under his rule, and joining army with their men in war time, etc. Their titles, privileges and duties were passing to their sons. As the island was conquered in 15th cen., it is certain that Hayrettin was son of such a sipahi. He tells much about his father in his own memories. His brothers were pirates too, leaving their fatherland and joining Hayrettin in Algeria which he conquered himself with his crew in 1516, but all of them being killed in young age in wars against Spanish and Italians.(I strongly recommend all to read his memories if translated into English. He writes much of the chronicles and adventures of plundered ships and towns one by one, envolved battles, sieges, voyages enormously detailed and fast,cheerful, adventurous but not bloody manner. I guess must be the best pirate book on world). So, he is Turkish father and perhaps christian for her mother.would you get proud with the situation and prefer to accept his mother as Greek originated, depends on you

Battara · 12th January 2005, 08:35 PM

Your welcome for the pics. I had scratched my head as well when I would see this symbol pop up in different places, including Moro blades. Also, I had read something about this Greek years ago. Genius is a good description. Amazing tactian.

By the way, if you need the silver replaced on your blade, just let me know Federico (shameless, I know

).

Yannis · 12th January 2005, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

So, he is Turkish father and perhaps christian for her mother.would you get proud with the situation and prefer to accept his mother as Greek originated, depends on you

I dont prefer anything. History has been written without us. But I love some turkish inventions like halva (persian actually) and hammam (ancient greek > roman > byzantine).

As far as I remember, when Turcs arrived to the seashore they hired greeks and arabs to make a fleet. It took 200-300 years to do it, but finally they had a Barbarossa and a Piri Reis. Where do you think they found the tactics and the maps? From heaven or from Ptolemeus?

erlikhan · 12th January 2005, 10:25 PM

Took 300 years? Funny. Turkish pirate Chaka Reis occupied Izmir from byzantines in 1090, just 19 years after Turks kicked byzance in Malazgirt war and entered eastern Anatolia. Before conquering Trakya and Istanbul, Turkish pirates were plundering all waters of Byzance in 14th century . Many provinces and towns carry their names.They learned from Arabian and Italians but not from Greeks, who were on the peak of poorness and misery in that age. They had become a soccer ball between pope,crusaders and Turks,having no naval force at all.Byzance was the one to hire Genoans and Venetians to use against Turks in 15th century. And I like today's Greeks, flattering with ancient people of 2000-2500 years ago. How many percent of your blood is same with them you think?0.1? Before Greece got independent in 1821, majority of northern Greece were Turks and Macedonians, and even villages around Athens were densily talking Albanian , and hundreds of thousands of Karamanians,mostly orthodox christian Turks added to them after 1923

. And continuous dense cultural assimilation backed by ancient Greece loving western Europe to form a uniform nation and tool to use against Turkey,Russia,Germany, whoever needed. Anyway, an unrelated topic opened by another member must not be the proper place to discuss these. We must show respect.point.

11th January 2005, 11:31 PM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Here is an 19c Ottoman battle flag that has the "sword of the Prophet" on it. It was auctioned at Christies last year: Attached Images

12th January 2005, 07:33 PM	#5
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Won Preveze war against Doria's navy in 1538 making Ottomans the only authority in Mediterennean till 1571 Inebahti war. His father was a "timarli sipahi" named "Yakup" from Eceabat-Canakkale and being granted soil in Midilli (Lesbos), and her mother is told as a christian named Katalina according in some western sources, me not knowing if based on objective info or not. You should have read from them. You probably know what" timarli sipahi" is. Ignoring very rare exceptions, as law only Turkish soldiers (not christian conversions like janissaries, or other muslim tribes) who took role in conquering new lands were granted with some soil with people and villages on it, being responsible to take care of that land and collect tax, and train and feed soldiers given under his rule, and joining army with their men in war time, etc. Their titles, privileges and duties were passing to their sons. As the island was conquered in 15th cen., it is certain that Hayrettin was son of such a sipahi. He tells much about his father in his own memories. His brothers were pirates too, leaving their fatherland and joining Hayrettin in Algeria which he conquered himself with his crew in 1516, but all of them being killed in young age in wars against Spanish and Italians.(I strongly recommend all to read his memories if translated into English. He writes much of the chronicles and adventures of plundered ships and towns one by one, envolved battles, sieges, voyages enormously detailed and fast,cheerful, adventurous but not bloody manner. I guess must be the best pirate book on world). So, he is Turkish father and perhaps christian for her mother.would you get proud with the situation and prefer to accept his mother as Greek originated, depends on you Last edited by erlikhan; 12th January 2005 at 08:28 PM.

12th January 2005, 03:50 PM	#3
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	There is the flag of the 16th.century Turkish pirate and later naval commander Barbaros Hayrettin in naval museum-Istanbul. It has the same symbol.

12th January 2005, 05:35 PM	#4
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Barbaros Hayrettin a.k.a. Barbarossa or Khayr ad-Din. A great Greek indeed! Just joking... This great commander was born in Lesbos island and some sources claim he was born christian. I dont say it is a fact, and I dont start a flame. He served the Sultan and he was a genius admiral. His major opponent was also famous: Andrea Doria, an italian legend

12th January 2005, 08:35 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Your welcome for the pics. I had scratched my head as well when I would see this symbol pop up in different places, including Moro blades. Also, I had read something about this Greek years ago. Genius is a good description. Amazing tactian. By the way, if you need the silver replaced on your blade, just let me know Federico (shameless, I know ).

12th January 2005, 10:25 PM	#8
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Took 300 years? Funny. Turkish pirate Chaka Reis occupied Izmir from byzantines in 1090, just 19 years after Turks kicked byzance in Malazgirt war and entered eastern Anatolia. Before conquering Trakya and Istanbul, Turkish pirates were plundering all waters of Byzance in 14th century . Many provinces and towns carry their names.They learned from Arabian and Italians but not from Greeks, who were on the peak of poorness and misery in that age. They had become a soccer ball between pope,crusaders and Turks,having no naval force at all.Byzance was the one to hire Genoans and Venetians to use against Turks in 15th century. And I like today's Greeks, flattering with ancient people of 2000-2500 years ago. How many percent of your blood is same with them you think?0.1? Before Greece got independent in 1821, majority of northern Greece were Turks and Macedonians, and even villages around Athens were densily talking Albanian , and hundreds of thousands of Karamanians,mostly orthodox christian Turks added to them after 1923 . And continuous dense cultural assimilation backed by ancient Greece loving western Europe to form a uniform nation and tool to use against Turkey,Russia,Germany, whoever needed. Anyway, an unrelated topic opened by another member must not be the proper place to discuss these. We must show respect.point.