Kalis / Kris / Keris Sundang / Solot / Sulok / Suluk:

[Spunjer]

yes, the Tausug (per Cato), and Bahasa Sug is one and the same. the latter is the more formal term. and yes, the similarity is strong esp. with the southern Visayan dialects.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

Just thought I'd snap'n'post these before cleaning ..... just for sharing.

Best,

1. Balikoeng

Desc: Kalis Baladaw Naga Galap Teloe Sikoe .
Blade: LxOALxWxT=41.5x54.5x10.08x1.30cm.; Front white-mtl katig.
Handle: Sarimanoek (generic) wood pommel w/ horn sides & white-mtl sleeve w/ floral motif.

2. Lanteh Banasi

Desc: Kalis Baladaw Naga Galap Siam Sikoe .
Blade: LxOALxWxT=60x73x12.15x1.33cm.; Front white-mtl katig.
Handle: Saboeng pommel, wood w/ string wrap.

3. Lanteh Djanasah

Desc: Kalis Baladaw Naga Galap HangpohTagSiam Sikoe .
Blade: LxOALxWxT=49x62x1.32x9.52cm.; Front and back katig.
Handle: Ivory Laboejoeh pommel w/ white-mtl collar.

[Amuk Murugul]

CORRECTIONS TO POST #1:
- item 5. should read '5. Kalis Lanteh Banasi (9-wave Blade)'
- items 8. and 9., the word Endas should be 'Andas'.
My apologies.

[David]

Hi Amuk. I do hope you are not going to just drop photos and run again. I believe a number of questions were asked earlier in this thread which you never returned to answer. You say that if your terminology is bewildering we should simply ignore it, but you also seem to find it important to correct spellings this last time so obviously you find your terminology important.
I do understand why Ron (Spunjer) is particularly interested in your use of the word "Sarimanoek" to describe the pommels here given that we have had long and heated discussions in the past concerning what these pommels might actually symbolize (Sarimanok vs. Kakatau) so the source of your terminology might well be very helpful in sorting out the debate. Could you please tell us more about the sources of the names you are using? Thanks!

[ariel]

And I thought that the fight for the name “Karud” was diabolically intense:-))))))

[Ian]

Originally Posted by ariel

And I thought that the fight for the name “Karud” was diabolically intense:-))))))

Ariel:

This thread will simmer for years and could well end up with hundreds of posts! The kar'd was just one weapon style. Ron has opened up both kris and barung for discussion, and we have not even started on barung yet.

You will notice some discussion of the term sarimanok here (interpreted as "beautiful bird"). That discussion extended into its own thread, which has indeed been a spirited debate. Ron has proposed that sarimanok actually refers to a mythical chicken/rooster that appears in the folk lore of the Maranao people of Mindanao, and by extension concludes that what Cato described as a kakatua pommel on kris and barung is actually a depiction of the mythical sarimanok. The term manok is widely used in the Philippines to refer specifically to a chicken. However, if we use the more generic translation of sarimanok as meaning beautiful bird, then the bird in question could be a kakatua. And so the beat goes on!

Ian.

[A. G. Maisey]

I would suggest that even if the word "sarimanok" --- or whatever equivalent spelling we care to use --- can be understood as "beautiful bird", that perhaps it really does not mean what the direct translation tells us it means.

Very often in keris related terminology we find that there are layers of knowledge. The first and most obvious layer gives a meaning that will satisfy those who have only a slight level of knowledge, the layers that follow will be intelligible to those with correspondingly higher levels of knowledge.

Maybe something similar is going on with our sarimanuk.

[David]

Originally Posted by Ian

You will notice some discussion of the term sarimanok here (interpreted as "beautiful bird"). That discussion extended into its own thread, which has indeed been a spirited debate. Ron has proposed that sarimanok actually refers to a mythical chicken/rooster that appears in the folk lore of the Maranao people of Mindanao, and by extension concludes that what Cato described as a kakatua pommel on kris and barung is actually a depiction of the mythical sarimanok. The term manok is widely used in the Philippines to refer specifically to a chicken. However, if we use the more generic translation of sarimanok as meaning beautiful bird, then the bird in question could be a kakatua. And so the beat goes on!

Perhaps i am picking at hairs here Ian, but Ron has not proposed the Sarimanok refers to this mythological bird. That much is pretty well established. It is also pretty well established that Sarimanok is not a kakatau (cockatoo) or any form of parrot. This bird is well known within the culture and has been depicted again and again in art and in connection with royalty and institutions.
The part that is being proposed by Ron that has not been clearly established yet is whether or not the intention of these Moro kris pommels that we know so well are indeed meant to represent the Sarimanok or if Cato was correct in calling them Kakatau. Obviously more evidence needs to be presented before either theory can be considered absolute fact. Since the Sarimanok does have a significant place within the culture as the name of a specific creature i would find some difficulty is using the word more generically to mean "beautiful bird".