On the Origins of the so-called Berber Sabres

[ariel]

Never thought to see this thread resurrected :-)))

Jut as an afterthought to my remark from 2013(!!!), see post #53: blades do travel.

Here is my nimcha ( or saif for the purists), typical North African work, but the blade is marked "Nueva Granada 1845". Nueva Granada is, AFAIK, Colombia/Panama these days:-)

Was the blade made there and transported to Spanish Sahara?

[carlos]

I only want to help in this post with 3 pictures from spanish army museum in Toledo.
Thanks
Carlos

[Ian]

I have been a silent observer of this thread for a long time. But it seems that Carlos' post lays to rest, definitively, the Spanish colonial origins of these swords, with their first appearance in Central America and later transposition to western Africa. This has all been said before in other posts here, but Carlos' finding of an excellent exemplar in the Toledo museum seems to be the icing on the cake.

Unlike the notorious "Shaver Cool" thread which went on forever, this one seems to have reached a clear and unambiguous conclusion. The use of British M1796 light cavalry saber blades on some of these is an interesting finding, and may reflect a surplus supply of these that was repurposed for the Spanish colonies. A Prussian version of the same sword ("Blucher-sabel"--Prussian cavalry M1811) might have been the source for some of these when that model was superseded in 1858.*

Ian.

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Reference

* Deller R and Binck J. The Prussian Model 1811 Cavalry Sabre (or "Blücher Sabre"). Classic Arms and Militaria, vol. 8, no. 4, July/August 2001. Accessible online here

[TVV]

Carlos,

Thank you for posting a much better picture of the Toledo sword than what I was able to do a couple of years ago in post 56 of this thread. It may take some time, but I hope eventually these swords will start to be properly attributed to the Caribbean and not to the Maghreb.

Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by TVV

Carlos,

Thank you for posting a much better picture of the Toledo sword than what I was able to do a couple of years ago in post 56 of this thread. It may take some time, but I hope eventually these swords will start to be properly attributed to the Caribbean and not to the Maghreb.

Teodor

We can only hope Teodor!!!
I first got one of these 'Berber' sabres back in 1995, before they were very known, and in a few years they gradually appeared.
I also got one of the guanabacoa which was claimed to have come from Monterrey Mexico.
These finger stalled guanabacoa had turned up in a well known dealers catalog as 'Algerian' pirate swords I saw later, which seemed a bizarre attribution. I later began seeing them in other catalogs with Mexican sword groupings. In a London auction catalog, a silver mounted one was listed as a Mexican sword. The article written by Calvo describes them as Cuban, as noted by our Mexican friend Gonzalo, who has not written here in many years.

Over these past 21 years, remarkable numbers of these weapons have appeared, most of them either from Mexico or Central American contexts. Pierce Chamberlain advised me around 2001 of some of these in a catalog which were provenance to Spanish American war bring backs.

In Tirri (2004) were the examples of the 'Berber' type sabres which were associated with volunteers or some such groups in early 20th century Spanish colonies. This was the only established reference I know of which suggested North African attribution of these.

I join with Ian in thanking Carlos for the most telling photos of the sword grouping in Toledo, and Teodor I still remember your entries from those years ago.

Ibrahiim, that curious scabbard with the vertical 'beak' or whatever it is was long confounding to me as well, on the 'Berber' sabres......now known to be Central American, Spanish colonial machetes or such form swords.
A similar type fixture is seen on Ethiopian shotels in "African Arms and Armour" by Christopher Spring, and that became a kind of red herring often wondering what the Ethiopian/Berber connection was.

It has been suggested that these are a kind of 'handle' to withdraw the machete from the usually leather mount scabbards, possibly more difficult in moist tropical climes ?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

We can only hope Teodor!!!
I first got one of these 'Berber' sabres back in 1995, before they were very known, and in a few years they gradually appeared.
I also got one of the guanabacoa which was claimed to have come from Monterrey Mexico.
These finger stalled guanabacoa had turned up in a well known dealers catalog as 'Algerian' pirate swords I saw later, which seemed a bizarre attribution. I later began seeing them in other catalogs with Mexican sword groupings. In a London auction catalog, a silver mounted one was listed as a Mexican sword. The article written by Calvo describes them as Cuban, as noted by our Mexican friend Gonzalo, who has not written here in many years.

Over these past 21 years, remarkable numbers of these weapons have appeared, most of them either from Mexico or Central American contexts. Pierce Chamberlain advised me around 2001 of some of these in a catalog which were provenance to Spanish American war bring backs.

In Tirri (2004) were the examples of the 'Berber' type sabres which were associated with volunteers or some such groups in early 20th century Spanish colonies. This was the only established reference I know of which suggested North African attribution of these.

I join with Ian in thanking Carlos for the most telling photos of the sword grouping in Toledo, and Teodor I still remember your entries from those years ago.

Ibrahiim, that curious scabbard with the vertical 'beak' or whatever it is was long confounding to me as well, on the 'Berber' sabres......now known to be Central American, Spanish colonial machetes or such form swords.
A similar type fixture is seen on Ethiopian shotels in "African Arms and Armour" by Christopher Spring, and that became a kind of red herring often wondering what the Ethiopian/Berber connection was.

It has been suggested that these are a kind of 'handle' to withdraw the machete from the usually leather mount scabbards, possibly more difficult in moist tropical climes ?

Thank you Jim, In particular about the strange 90 degree turn at the end of the scabbard. In some examples I see it as a beak?... At first I associated it with the Turkey design... In this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21715 please see the non beak version leading me to think it was either to steady the weapon when on horseback or to use that as a way of pulling the sword. In this case it appears to be Ethiopian ... and in a previous note I saw your attribution of the weapon traversing African supply/religious/ tribal routes thus perhaps it influenced North African or slave routes direct to the Atlantic slave trade stations and beyond.