Kalis / Kris / Keris Sundang / Solot / Sulok / Suluk:

[Ian]

Ron:

I think it's not a lack of interest so much as a lack of knowledge that inhibits discussion somewhat. You have presented the evidence clearly and I think you are correct. Also, what Cato labels as Tausug in his terminology (as I presented above in the scanned image from his book) would seem to be the same language that you have called Bahasa Sug--a form of Malay spoken in the Sulu Archipelago a century ago, possibly showing some Visayan influence (which would not be surprising).

Ian.

Originally Posted by Spunjer

i really thought this particular post was going to be an interesting discussion, but evidently not...

it seems to be the hang up is the language used in the description of the krises. as Maurice has confirmed, it's a dutch transliterations of native terms. IMHO, the language is Bahasa Sug, language of the people of Sulu. ...

[Spunjer]

yes, the Tausug (per Cato), and Bahasa Sug is one and the same. the latter is the more formal term. and yes, the similarity is strong esp. with the southern Visayan dialects.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

Just thought I'd snap'n'post these before cleaning ..... just for sharing.

Best,

1. Balikoeng

Desc: Kalis Baladaw Naga Galap Teloe Sikoe .
Blade: LxOALxWxT=41.5x54.5x10.08x1.30cm.; Front white-mtl katig.
Handle: Sarimanoek (generic) wood pommel w/ horn sides & white-mtl sleeve w/ floral motif.

2. Lanteh Banasi

Desc: Kalis Baladaw Naga Galap Siam Sikoe .
Blade: LxOALxWxT=60x73x12.15x1.33cm.; Front white-mtl katig.
Handle: Saboeng pommel, wood w/ string wrap.

3. Lanteh Djanasah

Desc: Kalis Baladaw Naga Galap HangpohTagSiam Sikoe .
Blade: LxOALxWxT=49x62x1.32x9.52cm.; Front and back katig.
Handle: Ivory Laboejoeh pommel w/ white-mtl collar.

[Amuk Murugul]

CORRECTIONS TO POST #1:
- item 5. should read '5. Kalis Lanteh Banasi (9-wave Blade)'
- items 8. and 9., the word Endas should be 'Andas'.
My apologies.

[David]

Hi Amuk. I do hope you are not going to just drop photos and run again. I believe a number of questions were asked earlier in this thread which you never returned to answer. You say that if your terminology is bewildering we should simply ignore it, but you also seem to find it important to correct spellings this last time so obviously you find your terminology important.
I do understand why Ron (Spunjer) is particularly interested in your use of the word "Sarimanoek" to describe the pommels here given that we have had long and heated discussions in the past concerning what these pommels might actually symbolize (Sarimanok vs. Kakatau) so the source of your terminology might well be very helpful in sorting out the debate. Could you please tell us more about the sources of the names you are using? Thanks!

[ariel]

And I thought that the fight for the name “Karud” was diabolically intense:-))))))

[Ian]

Originally Posted by ariel

And I thought that the fight for the name “Karud” was diabolically intense:-))))))

Ariel:

This thread will simmer for years and could well end up with hundreds of posts! The kar'd was just one weapon style. Ron has opened up both kris and barung for discussion, and we have not even started on barung yet.

You will notice some discussion of the term sarimanok here (interpreted as "beautiful bird"). That discussion extended into its own thread, which has indeed been a spirited debate. Ron has proposed that sarimanok actually refers to a mythical chicken/rooster that appears in the folk lore of the Maranao people of Mindanao, and by extension concludes that what Cato described as a kakatua pommel on kris and barung is actually a depiction of the mythical sarimanok. The term manok is widely used in the Philippines to refer specifically to a chicken. However, if we use the more generic translation of sarimanok as meaning beautiful bird, then the bird in question could be a kakatua. And so the beat goes on!

Ian.