Interesting Choora, ivory question

[harrywagner]

Here is one i like. Lots of detail, which makes it interesting to me, and the sheath looks like more than an afterthought. It needs cleaned and I expect that will reveal additional detail. The blade has been etched on one side and chiseled on the spine, near the forte and the tip. The bolsters and grip strap are silver with what appears to be a copper lining. The grips are dark horn and light horn, or dark horn and light bone. I still sometimes have a difficult time differentiating between bone and horn. The pommel has two inserts and the remnants of a steel loop. I am curious about the inserts. They don't appear to be bone. Are they ivory? TIA.

Harry

[Rich]

Nice Choora. I would suspect the grip scales are bone and horn.
Rich

[Helleri]

For the dark scales, horn is not that thick, likely hoof.

[edited to cut out what I wrote previously. And to say that I don't think the lighting in the pictures is good enough to make a judgment on whether the white scales are ivory, bone or some other material. Pictures with high ambient lighting and no flash would be ideal]
The inlays on the butt are almost certainly enamel (even if the scales are ivory or bone). How flush it is and the fit of the inlay is too perfectly conforming to the hole in the horn to not be enamel.

The bolster/chape/grip is not silver. Silver does not oxidize red. That is steel.

[edited to add additional information below]
For helping to identify the white scale material:

First test:
Rub it vigorously with your thumb until it is warm. Bone or Ivory will smell strongly of burnt hair when rubbed like this.

Second test:
eat a sewing needle (you will want to hold it with pliers of some kind) over a flame until it is red hot. Touch the hot needle tip to one of the scales. If it burns at all it is not ivory. However bone will burn (leaving a blackened pin hole and likely with a small wisp of smoke that smells strongly of burnt hair).

Precautions with second test:
There is tiny chance that one or more of the scales could be a replacement/repair piece. If that is the case there is a possibility that it is made of bakelite. Which is a very early form of plastic and is highly flammable. So you will want to have a cold damp rag on stand by. If you see flame...drop the needle and the thing holding it immediately, grab the rag and press it hard against the test area quickly (bakelite can explode)! The chances of this are really really slim...but better safe then sorry.

If it does burn a tiny hole you can repair it by first cleaning the hole with a water dampened wooden tooth pick, then using a very high grit file (like those used for filing finger nails) you can get a little white dust off the edge of one of the scales. And after applying the tiniest dot of super glue (liquid form not gel form) to the hole with a needle tip you can wipe the white does you got into that hole. This should make for a seamless repair if it turned out to be bone.

[Pukka Bundook]

I've noticed one or two knives of this type lately, called a choora, but to me they look for all the world like a pesh kabz. Can someone please tell me the difference?
I always thought the choora the long Afghan knife or 'Khyber' knife....

All the best,
Richard.

[Helleri]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

I've noticed one or two knives of this type lately, called a choora, but to me they look for all the world like a pesh kabz. Can someone please tell me the difference?
I always thought the choora the long Afghan knife or 'Khyber' knife....

All the best,
Richard.

I thought those were two words for the same thing. Or that one was somehow a more specific localization of the other?

[David]

Harry, before you start burning holes in your bone (which is the most probable material here) or, heaven forbid, catching fire to or exploding some possible bakelite replacement , try making some better photos for us to examine.
It is one thing to have to restore nice antique pieces that have been damaged over time by abuse and the environment. It's another to have to repair your own damage. I think many of us have been aware of this hot pin method for many years, but it is not something i would personally pursue on a piece i cared about and there are ways to determine ivory from bone without having to damage you collections .

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by David

Harry, before you start burning holes in your bone (which is the most probable material here) or, heaven forbid, catching fire to or exploding some possible bakelite replacement , try making some better photos for us to examine.
It is one thing to have to restore nice antique pieces that have been damaged over time by abuse and the environment. It's another to have to repair your own damage. I think many of us have been aware of this hot pin method for many years, but it is not something i would personally pursue on a piece i cared about and there are ways to determine ivory from bone without having to damage you collections .

Thanks David, and others. I did OK on the first of the tests that Helleri recommended, but the second test is a real killer. I hope these are better photos. I have included some closeups of the grips also. I am confident they are bone and they may provide a good comparison. With the small hand-held microscope I have the inserts do not appear to be the same material as the grips. I had not considered that they might be enamel, only because I don't recall ever seeing enamel on a Choora before. Is that a common material used for edged weapons in this part of the world?

With regards to the name I can only say that I think it would be correct to call all Choora Pesh Kabz, but not all Pesh Kabz should be called Choora. I think that name is limited to Afghanistan only, and only to this specific blade style. That is my understanding anyway.

Thanks again everyone!

[mariusgmioc]

Hello Harry,

Unfortunately, I am afraid the new photos don't help too much.

Generally ivory, nicely polished horn, bone and not to mention synthetic resin are very difficult to distinguish from photos.

Ivory has a specific structure and can display concentric circles (similar to the ones in the section of a tree). But the scales are rather small and you might have absolutely no structure at all.

I agree with David regarding the tests proposed. First test mentioned above does not work and the second one might be damaging EVEN FOR GENUINE IVORY!

For your very nice Choora, my best guess is ivory or bone (but more likely bone). I do not believe the two round inclusions to be enamel, but most likely the same material like the scales. Both bone and ivory can be easily polished to be perfectly flush with the pommel.

However, in my opinion it doesn't matter too much whether is ivory or bone. It's a nice knife anyhow!

[David]

I agree with Marius that the new photos aren't much better. They are closer, but they are over-exposed and i cannot really see much detail in the material. But if push came to shove i would guess they are bone. I cannot see any patterned structure in the pieces that would lead me to believe it is ivory.

[Helleri]

Rub and sniff testing can tell you a lot about vintage and antique material (if done correctly it absolutely does work). But I should carify and give some additional information about it. Bakelite has a sweet smell (this can give you forewarning). Casein can smell like wet dog. Bone ivory, horn and hoof will usually smell like burnt hair. Some resins and enamels may have their own odor (ranging from a white glue to milk like smell). Celluloid can smell sappy. It is important to have clean surface. Oils or chemicals from handling or treatment respectively can effect rub and sniff testing. So it's a good idea to make sure the surface is clean.

This should give you a pretty good idea of:

1) Whether or not all of the material is in fact the same material.

2) Whether the material is organic or synthetic

3) What material is comprised of.

4) Which if any pieces are repair/replacement pieces.

Now as for the hot needle test. It is not as destructive or as extreme as it sounds. The mark left if bone or a synthetic material will be so tiny that no one is going to notice it if they are not looking for it likely. You're not looking to press the needle with any amount of force, just touch it with the very tip. sometimes you can even just hover it very closely to see an effect. And if a material is ivory or ceramic it absolutely will leave no mark. If you do get a small undesirable mark it is very easy to repair with a little super glue and same colored dust from a very light, non-invasive filing with something like an emery nail file.

In general while a visual inspection can tell you a good deal. It's no way to go making a positive ID. Visual inspection is just one part of it. All of your senses and testing made to take advantage of those sense are important to make a positive ID on a material most of the time.

Where it regards an enamel fill it does fit the region. Enamel inlay has been used for centuries globally. The exact ingredients very a lot from region to region and even person to person. But the basic technique is to impregnate some sort of resin or adhesive with a either a pigment or insoluble material in dust form (for instance if you were to repair a small pin hole mark left by needle testing. The method prescribed is technically an enamel fill).

Usually the dust used (if dust and not a pigment) is made of the same material that accompanying scaling, plating, pining, or shodding is. So if that is an enamel fill then the secondary ingredient is likely made of dust from the same material as the scales (so it could be an ivory or bone enamel fill). This is usually done so that the effect of aging is as close to consistent as possible.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

I've noticed one or two knives of this type lately, called a choora, but to me they look for all the world like a pesh kabz. Can someone please tell me the difference?
I always thought the choora the long Afghan knife or 'Khyber' knife....

All the best,
Richard.

In my opinion Choora, which is more typical to Afghanistan, is a type of straight blade Pesh-kabz with specific grips.

[Pukka Bundook]

Thanks for the answer M,

A friend who was stationed at Spin Boldak (spelling) insisted a Choora is a ladies necklace........said Chora was a knife. But I well understand your answer and accept it as such!

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Helleri

In general while a visual inspection can tell you a good deal. It's no way to go making a positive ID.

Hello, Helleri,

I believe elephant ivory can be quite easily and safely identified through visual inspection as it has a specific structure that is quite characteristic and cannot be imitated by artificial resin (which is closest to genuine ivory through visual inspection).

I am attaching a few examples of ivory objects that all display the structure I am talking about.

Regards,

Marius

[David]

Originally Posted by Helleri

Now as for the hot needle test. It is not as destructive or as extreme as it sounds. The mark left if bone or a synthetic material will be so tiny that no one is going to notice it if they are not looking for it likely. You're not looking to press the needle with any amount of force, just touch it with the very tip. sometimes you can even just hover it very closely to see an effect. And if a material is ivory or ceramic it absolutely will leave no mark. If you do get a small undesirable mark it is very easy to repair with a little super glue and same colored dust from a very light, non-invasive filing with something like an emery nail file.

In general while a visual inspection can tell you a good deal. It's no way to go making a positive ID. Visual inspection is just one part of it. All of your senses and testing made to take advantage of those sense are important to make a positive ID on a material most of the time.

We will simply have to agree to disagree on his matter Helleri. There is no way in hell i am going to make any damage to one of my pieces, no matter how minor it might be.
As for visual inspection for ivory identification i would say that for the vast majority of ivory you can indeed make a very good positive ID that way...with the piece in hand. You simply need to know what you are looking for. I would never suggest it can be easily to discerned from photographs though. However, if Harry's choora were in my hands right now i would feel very confident telling him if it were ivory or not.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Thanks for the answer M,

A friend who was stationed at Spin Boldak (spelling) insisted a Choora is a ladies necklace........said Chora was a knife. But I well understand your answer and accept it as such!

This is very interesting information! So perhaps the correct spelling would be "CHORA" and not Choora.

Chora is also the name of a district in Uruzgan province of Afghanistan and it appears logical to name a knife after the area from where it originates (like the "Khyber knife").

[Royston]

I have handled a lot of these over the years and own quite a few now. I have never seen one with ivory on the hilt they are always horn / bone. To me they are everyday working knives not status pieces so are unlikely to be dressed in expensive ivory. I am not saying that an ivory grip does not exist, just that it would be on a much more impressive knife.

Regards
Roy

[ariel]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

This is very interesting information! So perhaps the correct spelling would be "CHORA" and not Choora.

Chora is also the name of a district in Uruzgan province of Afghanistan and it appears logical to name a knife after the area from where it originates (like the "Khyber knife").

Let' s not get hung on homophonic names.
I spoke with my fellow who is from Pakistan, Pakhtunkhwa, border with Afghanistan. He is fluent in Urdu and Pashto. Choora is just a "knife", churri is just a "small knife". Nothing in common with a wedding bangle or a district in Afghanistan. California has nothing in common with Caliphate. "Khyber knife" is not a native name: the Brits introduced it. All native homophonic words need to be analyzed through their native spelling, and not how they were transcribed in English.

[harrywagner]

Thanks everyone for the interesting comments and discussion. I am going to catalog this piece as have two small round BONE inserts in the pommel.

A learned colleague told me to be careful about using the word "Choora". Now I understand what he meant.

[Tim Simmons]

Yes chill out to Dr John Shoo Ra.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

I've noticed one or two knives of this type lately, called a choora, but to me they look for all the world like a pesh kabz. Can someone please tell me the difference?
I always thought the choora the long Afghan knife or 'Khyber' knife....

All the best,
Richard.

Richard, pesh and karud have solid hilts, choora have hilts that are made from several pieces, when seen together you can easily see the difference between them. Choora with ivory hilt, karud with bone hilt and pesh with ivory hilt.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Royston

I have handled a lot of these over the years and own quite a few now. I have never seen one with ivory on the hilt they are always horn / bone. To me they are everyday working knives not status pieces so are unlikely to be dressed in expensive ivory. I am not saying that an ivory grip does not exist, just that it would be on a much more impressive knife.

Regards
Roy

Roy, I have seen several choora with ivory hilts including one I own.

[estcrh]

One more comparison showing a khyber over a karud, choora and pesh, all very different and distinguishable from each other. There are some examples which blur the lines but they are exceptions.

[Tim Simmons]

That ivory Choora does not look like any elephant ivory I have. Hippo along with other animal ivory does not have the matrix which one can clearly see in elephant ivory. The handle bits look to be bone with the brown blood vessels showing, the handle butt I am not so sure about. If it has not got signs of an inner matrix then it might possibly be marine ivory, Whale tooth like Hippo no matrix. When you consider the trade in whale based commodities turning up anywhere in the world should be no surprise, like mobile phones.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

That ivory Choora does not look like any elephant ivory I have. Hippo along with other animal ivory does not have the matrix which one can clearly see in elephant ivory. The handle bits look to be bone with the brown blood vessels showing, the handle butt I am not so sure about. If it has not got signs of an inner matrix then it might possibly be marine ivory, Whale tooth like Hippo no matrix. When you consider the trade in whale based commodities turning up anywhere in the world should be no surprise, like mobile phones.

Tim, you bring up an interesting point, ivory comes from several different animals and often when a weapon that has ivory in it is sold the exact origin of the ivory is not stated.

"Ivory" describes any mammalian teeth or tusks which are large enough to be carved or scrimshawed. Elephant ivory is the most important source, but ivory from mammoth, walrus, hippopotamus, sperm whale, killer whale, narwhal and wart hog are used as well, Elk also have two ivory teeth.

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by estcrh

One more comparison showing a khyber over a karud, choora and pesh, all very different and distinguishable from each other. There are some examples which blur the lines but they are exceptions.

Excellent example. Thanks much.