Fake pistols with real locks, real pistols with fake locks

Battara · 1st April 2016, 05:31 PM

Kubur, this is a great idea - showing newer versus older versions! Knowledge is power (and avoids many many mistakes

).

I have seen the older examples, but not newer ones (believe it or not) so this is helpful for me.

Jim McDougall · 1st April 2016, 06:23 PM

Very much agree, a very good idea to display comparative examples to show differences between authentically known pieces and items with components incongruent or of later reproduced nature.

Some time ago there was a very good article on British pistols with various East India Co mkgs as well as some with the British makers names and GR stamps etc. but which were produced in the Khyber areas. There was a cottage industry of the innovative artisans in these areas producing guns duplicating the originals even into our times.
Here the authentic as opposed to the 'fabricated' examples were shown with the telling features explained.

As always, caution in using the 'fake' term and toward using names or identifying individuals responsible for the questionable items.

Good suggestion Kubur. As Battara notes, knowledge is power as the markets increasingly are consumed with questionable examples.

Kubur · 2nd April 2016, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As always, caution in using the 'fake' term and toward using names or identifying individuals responsible for the questionable items.
.

Yes I agree, it was just to have an exciting and attractive title...
They are not fake if they were intented to be produced for the tourist market.
But as you mentionned some of them appear now on the market as genuine items...
My first example, four Moroccan pistols.
2 originals, one with the classical miquelet snaphaunce lock, both Moroccan butt disc pistols.
1 most probably with an original stock and a fake lock
and the last one is a tourist production around 1920-40ties, sold sometimes with a koummiya as a panoplie set...

rickystl · 2nd April 2016, 04:59 PM

Hi Kubur.

As you and others above mention, this is a subject worth posting. First of all, if that Turkish Ball Butt pistol, with the imitation lock is in your possession, I think you should remove the lock and send the stock and barrel to me for further analysis. LOL.

I have generally viewed the Tourist pistols as either pre or post 1950. It's amazing how much work was done to the earlier specimens for a tourist item. And yes, you will see the earlier ones utilizing original locks (and occasionally hardware) with new stocks and barrels. Often the barrels are simply a piece of pipe shaped to fit. I have some photos for reference, but am away from home on business at present. I'll post some photos when I return on April 8.

Rick

digenis · 4th April 2016, 07:47 PM

A short visit to one of the bazaars in Kabul, Afghanistan will provide the interested collector a sample of the wildest array of composite or new "old" weapons. Some of these creations must have required a certain degree of skill or imagination. The gamut is pretty wide. Anything from flintlock pistols to old Lee Enfield rifles all made in Afghanistan or Pakistan.

rickystl · 9th April 2016, 04:35 PM

Hello all.
Below, are examples of the latter made Tourist pistols. Note the crude workmanship. The first two photos show a pistol with the lock mounted on the wrong side. LOL The last photo shows the most common type you see today. There is always at least 2-3 of these for sale on all of the best known gun auction web-sites. They look so much alike, it would not surprise me if they were all made in the same shop. Some have vent holes drilled in the barrel, and some don't.
There is so little workmanship in the newer ones as opposed to the earlier ones like Kubur posted above. It's amazing how much work went into the earlier ones for just a tourist item. You could almost consider the earlier ones collectable in their own right (?)
There are legitiment gun dealers that sell these (my last photo) as known tourist items. There are others that simply don't know, and probably wonder why they never sell. It still amazes me how little knowledge there is on Ethno firearms outside this Forum from otherwise knowledgable gun dealers.
Rick.

rickystl · 9th April 2016, 04:37 PM

Woops.........here's the third one. Most common you see.

9th April 2016, 04:35 PM	#6
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Hello all. Below, are examples of the latter made Tourist pistols. Note the crude workmanship. The first two photos show a pistol with the lock mounted on the wrong side. LOL The last photo shows the most common type you see today. There is always at least 2-3 of these for sale on all of the best known gun auction web-sites. They look so much alike, it would not surprise me if they were all made in the same shop. Some have vent holes drilled in the barrel, and some don't. There is so little workmanship in the newer ones as opposed to the earlier ones like Kubur posted above. It's amazing how much work went into the earlier ones for just a tourist item. You could almost consider the earlier ones collectable in their own right (?) There are legitiment gun dealers that sell these (my last photo) as known tourist items. There are others that simply don't know, and probably wonder why they never sell. It still amazes me how little knowledge there is on Ethno firearms outside this Forum from otherwise knowledgable gun dealers. Rick. Attached Images

9th April 2016, 04:37 PM	#7
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Woops.........here's the third one. Most common you see. Attached Images

1st April 2016, 05:31 PM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Kubur, this is a great idea - showing newer versus older versions! Knowledge is power (and avoids many many mistakes ). I have seen the older examples, but not newer ones (believe it or not) so this is helpful for me.

1st April 2016, 06:23 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Very much agree, a very good idea to display comparative examples to show differences between authentically known pieces and items with components incongruent or of later reproduced nature. Some time ago there was a very good article on British pistols with various East India Co mkgs as well as some with the British makers names and GR stamps etc. but which were produced in the Khyber areas. There was a cottage industry of the innovative artisans in these areas producing guns duplicating the originals even into our times. Here the authentic as opposed to the 'fabricated' examples were shown with the telling features explained. As always, caution in using the 'fake' term and toward using names or identifying individuals responsible for the questionable items. Good suggestion Kubur. As Battara notes, knowledge is power as the markets increasingly are consumed with questionable examples.

2nd April 2016, 04:59 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Hi Kubur. As you and others above mention, this is a subject worth posting. First of all, if that Turkish Ball Butt pistol, with the imitation lock is in your possession, I think you should remove the lock and send the stock and barrel to me for further analysis. LOL. I have generally viewed the Tourist pistols as either pre or post 1950. It's amazing how much work was done to the earlier specimens for a tourist item. And yes, you will see the earlier ones utilizing original locks (and occasionally hardware) with new stocks and barrels. Often the barrels are simply a piece of pipe shaped to fit. I have some photos for reference, but am away from home on business at present. I'll post some photos when I return on April 8. Rick

4th April 2016, 07:47 PM	#5
digenis Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 48	A short visit to one of the bazaars in Kabul, Afghanistan will provide the interested collector a sample of the wildest array of composite or new "old" weapons. Some of these creations must have required a certain degree of skill or imagination. The gamut is pretty wide. Anything from flintlock pistols to old Lee Enfield rifles all made in Afghanistan or Pakistan.