Kalis / Kris / Keris Sundang / Solot / Sulok / Suluk:

Spunjer · 30th March 2016, 11:26 PM

thanks for the link, Alan.
i can't find the term "lanteh" by itself in Cowie's book either, other than where it's mentioned with the kris.

for what it's worth, a straight blade kalis is also known as Kalis Waysiku or Kalis Buntul, depending which part of Sulu you're from...

Spunjer · 6th April 2016, 11:59 PM

i really thought this particular post was going to be an interesting discussion, but evidently not...

it seems to be the hang up is the language used in the description of the krises. as Maurice has confirmed, it's a dutch transliterations of native terms. IMHO, the language is Bahasa Sug, language of the people of Sulu. Kris 5, 6 and 7 got my attention.

Per Amul:
5) Kalis Lanteh Bandoeh
6) Kalis Lanteh Liamai
7) Kalis Lanteh Agoeboekoe

Per Cowie's Book:
Kalis Lanteh Bandos
Kalis Lanteh Liamai
Kalis Lanteh Agau Buku

Then we have the numerical system:
Teloe
Lima
Pitoe
Siam
Hangpotaglima
Hangpotagesa
Kaoehantagteloe
Kaoehantagsiam

for the Bahasa Sug's system, i've attached a couple of pages from Cowie's book

then the term Sekoe (Siku in Bahasa Sug). oh, and Sarimanoek (Sarimanok)

so there it is. it would be nice if Amul can comment back. would love to know how you got the nomenclature for these krises. for the time being, here's what he said from another thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...7&postcount=12

the way i look at it, if those child-size kris pocket knives from Indonesia have unique nomenclature, why can't these krises have them as well. now it's just a matter of figuring out why it was called that way...

David · 7th April 2016, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

the way i look at it, if those child-size kris pocket knives from Indonesia have unique nomenclature, why can't these krises have them as well.

Hey! I think thems might be fightin' words!

And just for a bit of support i am with you on Sarimanok.

A. G. Maisey · 8th April 2016, 12:37 AM

Thanks for that clarification Ron.

I personally find this info on the language used very interesting indeed.

Ian · 8th April 2016, 03:41 PM

Ron:

I think it's not a lack of interest so much as a lack of knowledge that inhibits discussion somewhat. You have presented the evidence clearly and I think you are correct. Also, what Cato labels as Tausug in his terminology (as I presented above in the scanned image from his book) would seem to be the same language that you have called Bahasa Sug--a form of Malay spoken in the Sulu Archipelago a century ago, possibly showing some Visayan influence (which would not be surprising).

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

i really thought this particular post was going to be an interesting discussion, but evidently not...

it seems to be the hang up is the language used in the description of the krises. as Maurice has confirmed, it's a dutch transliterations of native terms. IMHO, the language is Bahasa Sug, language of the people of Sulu. ...

Spunjer · 10th April 2016, 10:09 AM

yes, the Tausug (per Cato), and Bahasa Sug is one and the same. the latter is the more formal term. and yes, the similarity is strong esp. with the southern Visayan dialects.

Amuk Murugul · 17th June 2018, 11:48 PM

Hullo everybody!

Just thought I'd snap'n'post these before cleaning ..... just for sharing.

Best,

1. Balikoeng

Desc: Kalis Baladaw Naga Galap Teloe Sikoe .
Blade: LxOALxWxT=41.5x54.5x10.08x1.30cm.; Front white-mtl katig.
Handle: Sarimanoek (generic) wood pommel w/ horn sides & white-mtl sleeve w/ floral motif.

2. Lanteh Banasi

Desc: Kalis Baladaw Naga Galap Siam Sikoe .
Blade: LxOALxWxT=60x73x12.15x1.33cm.; Front white-mtl katig.
Handle: Saboeng pommel, wood w/ string wrap.

3. Lanteh Djanasah

Desc: Kalis Baladaw Naga Galap HangpohTagSiam Sikoe .
Blade: LxOALxWxT=49x62x1.32x9.52cm.; Front and back katig.
Handle: Ivory Laboejoeh pommel w/ white-mtl collar.

Amuk Murugul · 17th June 2018, 11:51 PM

CORRECTIONS TO POST #1:
- item 5. should read '5. Kalis Lanteh Banasi (9-wave Blade)'
- items 8. and 9., the word Endas should be 'Andas'.
My apologies.

David · 18th June 2018, 08:17 PM

Hi Amuk. I do hope you are not going to just drop photos and run again. I believe a number of questions were asked earlier in this thread which you never returned to answer. You say that if your terminology is bewildering we should simply ignore it, but you also seem to find it important to correct spellings this last time so obviously you find your terminology important.
I do understand why Ron (Spunjer) is particularly interested in your use of the word "Sarimanoek" to describe the pommels here given that we have had long and heated discussions in the past concerning what these pommels might actually symbolize (Sarimanok vs. Kakatau) so the source of your terminology might well be very helpful in sorting out the debate. Could you please tell us more about the sources of the names you are using? Thanks!

6th April 2016, 11:59 PM	#2
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	i really thought this particular post was going to be an interesting discussion, but evidently not... it seems to be the hang up is the language used in the description of the krises. as Maurice has confirmed, it's a dutch transliterations of native terms. IMHO, the language is Bahasa Sug, language of the people of Sulu. Kris 5, 6 and 7 got my attention. Per Amul: 5) Kalis Lanteh Bandoeh 6) Kalis Lanteh Liamai 7) Kalis Lanteh Agoeboekoe Per Cowie's Book: Kalis Lanteh Bandos Kalis Lanteh Liamai Kalis Lanteh Agau Buku Then we have the numerical system: Teloe Lima Pitoe Siam Hangpotaglima Hangpotagesa Kaoehantagteloe Kaoehantagsiam for the Bahasa Sug's system, i've attached a couple of pages from Cowie's book then the term Sekoe (Siku in Bahasa Sug). oh, and Sarimanoek (Sarimanok) so there it is. it would be nice if Amul can comment back. would love to know how you got the nomenclature for these krises. for the time being, here's what he said from another thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...7&postcount=12 the way i look at it, if those child-size kris pocket knives from Indonesia have unique nomenclature, why can't these krises have them as well. now it's just a matter of figuring out why it was called that way... Attached Images

17th June 2018, 11:48 PM	#7
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 472	Twist-core examples Hullo everybody! Just thought I'd snap'n'post these before cleaning ..... just for sharing. Best, 1. Balikoeng Desc: Kalis Baladaw Naga Galap Teloe Sikoe . Blade: LxOALxWxT=41.5x54.5x10.08x1.30cm.; Front white-mtl katig. Handle: Sarimanoek (generic) wood pommel w/ horn sides & white-mtl sleeve w/ floral motif. 2. Lanteh Banasi Desc: Kalis Baladaw Naga Galap Siam Sikoe . Blade: LxOALxWxT=60x73x12.15x1.33cm.; Front white-mtl katig. Handle: Saboeng pommel, wood w/ string wrap. 3. Lanteh Djanasah Desc: Kalis Baladaw Naga Galap HangpohTagSiam Sikoe . Blade: LxOALxWxT=49x62x1.32x9.52cm.; Front and back katig. Handle: Ivory Laboejoeh pommel w/ white-mtl collar. Attached Images

17th June 2018, 11:51 PM	#8
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 472	ERRATA CORRECTIONS TO POST #1: - item 5. should read '5. Kalis Lanteh Banasi (9-wave Blade)' - items 8. and 9., the word Endas should be 'Andas'. My apologies.

30th March 2016, 11:26 PM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thanks for the link, Alan. i can't find the term "lanteh" by itself in Cowie's book either, other than where it's mentioned with the kris. for what it's worth, a straight blade kalis is also known as Kalis Waysiku or Kalis Buntul, depending which part of Sulu you're from... Attached Images

8th April 2016, 12:37 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,988	Thanks for that clarification Ron. I personally find this info on the language used very interesting indeed.

10th April 2016, 10:09 AM	#6
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	yes, the Tausug (per Cato), and Bahasa Sug is one and the same. the latter is the more formal term. and yes, the similarity is strong esp. with the southern Visayan dialects.

18th June 2018, 08:17 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,209	Hi Amuk. I do hope you are not going to just drop photos and run again. I believe a number of questions were asked earlier in this thread which you never returned to answer. You say that if your terminology is bewildering we should simply ignore it, but you also seem to find it important to correct spellings this last time so obviously you find your terminology important. I do understand why Ron (Spunjer) is particularly interested in your use of the word "Sarimanoek" to describe the pommels here given that we have had long and heated discussions in the past concerning what these pommels might actually symbolize (Sarimanok vs. Kakatau) so the source of your terminology might well be very helpful in sorting out the debate. Could you please tell us more about the sources of the names you are using? Thanks!