Kalis / Kris / Keris Sundang / Solot / Sulok / Suluk:

A. G. Maisey · 29th March 2016, 10:11 PM

Ian, to clarify the matter of language.

True, Amuk has not named the language used, but he did ask us to ignore the labelling, seemingly so, because he felt it might confuse us.

In other words, we are not expected to be able to understand the text he has provided, we just look at the pictures.

When what is now Indonesia was under Dutch control, the local languages were transliterated into Dutch spellings. Amuk usually writes Malay/Javanese/Sundanese and any other indigenous S.E.Asian languages that he may use, with this spelling.

I do not understand why he does this, but that is his style. This of course makes understanding his posts more than a little difficult sometimes, especially for anybody who does not have Indonesian as a second or first language (Indonesian is actually a form of Malay).

Different spellings have been used in Indonesia for over 40 years, and in fact younger Indonesians sometimes stumble on these old spellings too. The only reason I understand the words is because I began to learn Indonesian when the old spellings were still being used.

It would not surprise me if Amuk is using Sundanese, or possibly a dialect of this language. Sundanese is used in West Jawa, Javanese is used in most other parts of Jawa, both languages have regional variations, and both contain words that can be found in the other.

For instance, this word "sarimanoek", today this would be spelt "sarimanuk" in Indonesia. It is comprised of two words:- "sari", which has multiple meanings , but in this context it probably implies beauty, and "manuk", which means bird, so if I read that word as a Javanese word, I would understand it as "beautiful bird". But here it is not Javanese, however, the meaning is likely to be similar to "beautiful bird".

Sajen · 29th March 2016, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I do not understand why he does this, but that is his style. This of course makes understanding his posts more than a little difficult sometimes, especially for anybody who does not have Indonesian as a second or first language (Indonesian is actually a form of Malay).

It would not surprise me if Amuk is using Sundanese, or possibly a dialect of this language. Sundanese is used in West Jawa, Javanese is used in most other parts of Jawa, both languages have regional variations, and both contain words that can be found in the other.

I think you are correct by this. When you have read the posts from Amuk you nearly can be sure that Amuk is Sundanese. He just have tried to classify kalis blades after the number of luks and this in his own language.

Regards,
Detlef

Spunjer · 30th March 2016, 12:09 AM

Alan, it was my assumption that it meant wavy in Malay based on a book that was written by Andson Cowie in 1893, an Englishman that resided in Borneo at that time ("English Sulu Malay Vocabulary"). I stand corrected.

what led me to that conclusion was, the kalis, or kris were divided into two groups according to this book: either it's wavy (kalis lanteh), or straight (kalis tu'lid). there's no mention of semi-wavy.

in Cato's book, he called the semi wavy blades as Kalis Talu-seko. sounds too much like the description on kalis no. 2 (kalis teloe sekoe, "three wave kris") which, by having three waves would indeed be a half wave/half straight. what about a five wave blade with a straight tip? would that still be a talu-seko, or is it now called a lima seko? so my assumption is it's included in the wavy category. furthermore, the categories were subdivided into different types.

for me, that brought up a whole new dimension because now what we might think as a Maranao blade based on its katik could actually be a type of kalis or kris mentioned by this book, as oppose to what Cato assumed. another thing that got me interested with Amuk's classification (whether it was copied or not) is each kris has a description, similar to the way it was described in this book. whether it's confusing or not, there must be a reason why it was called that way. i understand the spelling is confusing, but it might have been spelled phonetically by a colonialist. regardless, i believe it was called that way for a reason.

I have already given the nomenclature of the different types of wavy kalis. as far as the kalis tu'lid or straight blade kalis, it was subdivided into these variations:
kalis tu'lid samsil
kalis tu'lid bunga bung loi
kalis tu'lid balangkas
kalis tu'lid ka-kolang-an
kalis tu'lid dasag
kalis tu'lid dapau
kalis tu'lid panas
kalis tu'lid sabli

then we have the barung that was subdivided further into six different types:
tunggal
kamas
laipan
binlihan
angkun (i believe this type is the one that has the 'chinese' chopmark on the blade)
to

as far as budiak, it was subdivided into 12 different types which i'm not gonna get into.

regarding the term "lanti", it is indeed Bahasa Sug, albeit this particular term is "archaic" as explained to me by a Tausug friend of mine.

David, you said:
Why saying "Kalis Naga Galap Lima Sikoe" should be any more correct than simply saying "Kris with Snake-like Five-Wave Blade" is beyond me in this case

that's no more different than someone is saying "I'm carrying a Springfield Armory XD Mod 2 sub-compact 9mm pistol"
and i don't think that's what it tried to convey. my thinking would be like "Kalis Naga Galap, lima sekoe" (comma included), which would now translate to "Kalis Snake-like, five waves variation"

now, we can go either way. put this aside because it's confusing, and cato's words are gold, or look at it as a whole new chapter in Moro weapons.

A. G. Maisey · 30th March 2016, 04:21 AM

Ron, for an online dictionary of Malay, you might find Wilkinson a bit more useful:-

https://archive.org/stream/aeg2034.0...ge/n5/mode/2up

but I can't find 'lanteh' in either Wilkinson or Cowie.

I'm sorry, but I cannot discuss these keris-like objects, as I know nothing about them. It was the strange language and seemingly garbled terminology that caught my eye, and I wondered where Amuk had sourced it from.

Unless he sees fit to answer, I guess we'll be wondering forever.

Detlef

No, Amuk is not Sundanese, but he did live in West Jawa from, I think, about 2003. Not quite sure where he is at the moment, but probably still in Indonesia.

He is actually a very multi-talented man.

30th March 2016, 04:21 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,988	Ron, for an online dictionary of Malay, you might find Wilkinson a bit more useful:- https://archive.org/stream/aeg2034.0...ge/n5/mode/2up but I can't find 'lanteh' in either Wilkinson or Cowie. I'm sorry, but I cannot discuss these keris-like objects, as I know nothing about them. It was the strange language and seemingly garbled terminology that caught my eye, and I wondered where Amuk had sourced it from. Unless he sees fit to answer, I guess we'll be wondering forever. Detlef No, Amuk is not Sundanese, but he did live in West Jawa from, I think, about 2003. Not quite sure where he is at the moment, but probably still in Indonesia. He is actually a very multi-talented man. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 30th March 2016 at 04:31 AM.

29th March 2016, 10:11 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,988	Ian, to clarify the matter of language. True, Amuk has not named the language used, but he did ask us to ignore the labelling, seemingly so, because he felt it might confuse us. In other words, we are not expected to be able to understand the text he has provided, we just look at the pictures. When what is now Indonesia was under Dutch control, the local languages were transliterated into Dutch spellings. Amuk usually writes Malay/Javanese/Sundanese and any other indigenous S.E.Asian languages that he may use, with this spelling. I do not understand why he does this, but that is his style. This of course makes understanding his posts more than a little difficult sometimes, especially for anybody who does not have Indonesian as a second or first language (Indonesian is actually a form of Malay). Different spellings have been used in Indonesia for over 40 years, and in fact younger Indonesians sometimes stumble on these old spellings too. The only reason I understand the words is because I began to learn Indonesian when the old spellings were still being used. It would not surprise me if Amuk is using Sundanese, or possibly a dialect of this language. Sundanese is used in West Jawa, Javanese is used in most other parts of Jawa, both languages have regional variations, and both contain words that can be found in the other. For instance, this word "sarimanoek", today this would be spelt "sarimanuk" in Indonesia. It is comprised of two words:- "sari", which has multiple meanings , but in this context it probably implies beauty, and "manuk", which means bird, so if I read that word as a Javanese word, I would understand it as "beautiful bird". But here it is not Javanese, however, the meaning is likely to be similar to "beautiful bird".

30th March 2016, 12:09 AM	#3
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Alan, it was my assumption that it meant wavy in Malay based on a book that was written by Andson Cowie in 1893, an Englishman that resided in Borneo at that time ("English Sulu Malay Vocabulary"). I stand corrected. what led me to that conclusion was, the kalis, or kris were divided into two groups according to this book: either it's wavy (kalis lanteh), or straight (kalis tu'lid). there's no mention of semi-wavy. in Cato's book, he called the semi wavy blades as Kalis Talu-seko. sounds too much like the description on kalis no. 2 (kalis teloe sekoe, "three wave kris") which, by having three waves would indeed be a half wave/half straight. what about a five wave blade with a straight tip? would that still be a talu-seko, or is it now called a lima seko? so my assumption is it's included in the wavy category. furthermore, the categories were subdivided into different types. for me, that brought up a whole new dimension because now what we might think as a Maranao blade based on its katik could actually be a type of kalis or kris mentioned by this book, as oppose to what Cato assumed. another thing that got me interested with Amuk's classification (whether it was copied or not) is each kris has a description, similar to the way it was described in this book. whether it's confusing or not, there must be a reason why it was called that way. i understand the spelling is confusing, but it might have been spelled phonetically by a colonialist. regardless, i believe it was called that way for a reason. I have already given the nomenclature of the different types of wavy kalis. as far as the kalis tu'lid or straight blade kalis, it was subdivided into these variations: kalis tu'lid samsil kalis tu'lid bunga bung loi kalis tu'lid balangkas kalis tu'lid ka-kolang-an kalis tu'lid dasag kalis tu'lid dapau kalis tu'lid panas kalis tu'lid sabli then we have the barung that was subdivided further into six different types: tunggal kamas laipan binlihan angkun (i believe this type is the one that has the 'chinese' chopmark on the blade) to as far as budiak, it was subdivided into 12 different types which i'm not gonna get into. regarding the term "lanti", it is indeed Bahasa Sug, albeit this particular term is "archaic" as explained to me by a Tausug friend of mine. David, you said: Why saying "Kalis Naga Galap Lima Sikoe" should be any more correct than simply saying "Kris with Snake-like Five-Wave Blade" is beyond me in this case that's no more different than someone is saying "I'm carrying a Springfield Armory XD Mod 2 sub-compact 9mm pistol" and i don't think that's what it tried to convey. my thinking would be like "Kalis Naga Galap, lima sekoe" (comma included), which would now translate to "Kalis Snake-like, five waves variation" now, we can go either way. put this aside because it's confusing, and cato's words are gold, or look at it as a whole new chapter in Moro weapons.