Kalis / Kris / Keris Sundang / Solot / Sulok / Suluk:

[Ian]

Hi David:

Actually, Amuk did not mention the language that was used here, which is why there have been so many questions asked. You and Alan perhaps know him from posts in the Warung Kopi because you two are the only ones who have mentioned a Dutch connection.

As far as the sarimanoek/sarimanok connection, I think it is important to know where Amuk's use of that came from. Before Ron (spunjer) came up with the suggestion, I had never heard of it in connection with a kris hilt. It is possible Amuk has borrowed the term from this site, in which case it does not tell us anything more than Ron's original suggestion. If the source is different, then it adds support to Ron's suggestion.

As to whether Amuk has presented a representative group of kris on which to base a classification system, I tend to think they are not sufficiently representative of the major groups. What I'm seeing here are kris nearly all from the Sulu Archipelago, with perhaps one Maranao (far right) and no examples from the Maguindanao. Cato went to some length to describe the subtle differences in the kris from different Moro groups and, as shown in the plate from his book that I posted, the terms used for the kris vary by dialect.

Amuk's classification is based on the blade (number of luk) and shape of the hilt. I'm not aware that the number of luk have any major significance among the Moro--perhaps this is more important for the Indonesian keris. The usual classification is straight, semi-waved, and waved. And for hilt shapes, there are more varieties than the two basic types described by Amuk.

When you say:

What we might want to focus on is Amuk's first statements. Is this truly a good selection of "representative examples [that] illustrate the basic range"?

Is this actually what's being asked of us? If so, I would not have gathered that from Amuk's post.

Ian.

Originally Posted by David

As Alan has pointed out, Amuk was pretty clear on the language used here...and yet, every response here has in some way referred to his odd terms and Dutch transliterations. Frankly, i suggest we take Amuk's suggestion and ignore these strange terms since i doubt they hold much weight as legitimate terminology from indigenous sources. I do understand Ron's interest in his use of the word "sarimanoek" (sarimanok) to describe the "kakatau" pommels and also find that interesting, but unless Amuk is interested in discussing his sources for these questionable terms (and it appears he is not), then i don't see much point in our desperate attempts to find reason in them.
As we already, the Moro are made up of numerous tribes, all with their own specific dialects. Even if these names were absolutely correct for a Tausug tribe member they would not be the same for the Maranao. As far as i can tell these terms seem to have originated with a pre-1972 Dutch colonialist who has perhaps incorporated and/or corrupted some Javanese or some other Austronesian languages to create these categories. Why saying "Kalis Naga Galap Lima Sikoe" should be any more correct than simply saying "Kris with Snake-like Five-Wave Blade" is beyond me in this case.
What we might want to focus on is Amuk's first statements. Is this truly a good selection of "representative examples [that] illustrate the basic range"?

[A. G. Maisey]

Ian, to clarify the matter of language.

True, Amuk has not named the language used, but he did ask us to ignore the labelling, seemingly so, because he felt it might confuse us.

In other words, we are not expected to be able to understand the text he has provided, we just look at the pictures.

When what is now Indonesia was under Dutch control, the local languages were transliterated into Dutch spellings. Amuk usually writes Malay/Javanese/Sundanese and any other indigenous S.E.Asian languages that he may use, with this spelling.

I do not understand why he does this, but that is his style. This of course makes understanding his posts more than a little difficult sometimes, especially for anybody who does not have Indonesian as a second or first language (Indonesian is actually a form of Malay).

Different spellings have been used in Indonesia for over 40 years, and in fact younger Indonesians sometimes stumble on these old spellings too. The only reason I understand the words is because I began to learn Indonesian when the old spellings were still being used.

It would not surprise me if Amuk is using Sundanese, or possibly a dialect of this language. Sundanese is used in West Jawa, Javanese is used in most other parts of Jawa, both languages have regional variations, and both contain words that can be found in the other.

For instance, this word "sarimanoek", today this would be spelt "sarimanuk" in Indonesia. It is comprised of two words:- "sari", which has multiple meanings , but in this context it probably implies beauty, and "manuk", which means bird, so if I read that word as a Javanese word, I would understand it as "beautiful bird". But here it is not Javanese, however, the meaning is likely to be similar to "beautiful bird".

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I do not understand why he does this, but that is his style. This of course makes understanding his posts more than a little difficult sometimes, especially for anybody who does not have Indonesian as a second or first language (Indonesian is actually a form of Malay).


It would not surprise me if Amuk is using Sundanese, or possibly a dialect of this language. Sundanese is used in West Jawa, Javanese is used in most other parts of Jawa, both languages have regional variations, and both contain words that can be found in the other.

I think you are correct by this. When you have read the posts from Amuk you nearly can be sure that Amuk is Sundanese. He just have tried to classify kalis blades after the number of luks and this in his own language.

Regards,
Detlef

[Spunjer]

Alan, it was my assumption that it meant wavy in Malay based on a book that was written by Andson Cowie in 1893, an Englishman that resided in Borneo at that time ("English Sulu Malay Vocabulary"). I stand corrected.

what led me to that conclusion was, the kalis, or kris were divided into two groups according to this book: either it's wavy (kalis lanteh), or straight (kalis tu'lid). there's no mention of semi-wavy.

in Cato's book, he called the semi wavy blades as Kalis Talu-seko. sounds too much like the description on kalis no. 2 (kalis teloe sekoe, "three wave kris") which, by having three waves would indeed be a half wave/half straight. what about a five wave blade with a straight tip? would that still be a talu-seko, or is it now called a lima seko? so my assumption is it's included in the wavy category. furthermore, the categories were subdivided into different types.

for me, that brought up a whole new dimension because now what we might think as a Maranao blade based on its katik could actually be a type of kalis or kris mentioned by this book, as oppose to what Cato assumed. another thing that got me interested with Amuk's classification (whether it was copied or not) is each kris has a description, similar to the way it was described in this book. whether it's confusing or not, there must be a reason why it was called that way. i understand the spelling is confusing, but it might have been spelled phonetically by a colonialist. regardless, i believe it was called that way for a reason.

I have already given the nomenclature of the different types of wavy kalis. as far as the kalis tu'lid or straight blade kalis, it was subdivided into these variations:
kalis tu'lid samsil
kalis tu'lid bunga bung loi
kalis tu'lid balangkas
kalis tu'lid ka-kolang-an
kalis tu'lid dasag
kalis tu'lid dapau
kalis tu'lid panas
kalis tu'lid sabli


then we have the barung that was subdivided further into six different types:
tunggal
kamas
laipan
binlihan
angkun (i believe this type is the one that has the 'chinese' chopmark on the blade)
to

as far as budiak, it was subdivided into 12 different types which i'm not gonna get into.



regarding the term "lanti", it is indeed Bahasa Sug, albeit this particular term is "archaic" as explained to me by a Tausug friend of mine.

David, you said:
Why saying "Kalis Naga Galap Lima Sikoe" should be any more correct than simply saying "Kris with Snake-like Five-Wave Blade" is beyond me in this case

that's no more different than someone is saying "I'm carrying a Springfield Armory XD Mod 2 sub-compact 9mm pistol"
and i don't think that's what it tried to convey. my thinking would be like "Kalis Naga Galap, lima sekoe" (comma included), which would now translate to "Kalis Snake-like, five waves variation"

now, we can go either way. put this aside because it's confusing, and cato's words are gold, or look at it as a whole new chapter in Moro weapons.

[A. G. Maisey]

Ron, for an online dictionary of Malay, you might find Wilkinson a bit more useful:-

https://archive.org/stream/aeg2034.0...ge/n5/mode/2up

but I can't find 'lanteh' in either Wilkinson or Cowie.

I'm sorry, but I cannot discuss these keris-like objects, as I know nothing about them. It was the strange language and seemingly garbled terminology that caught my eye, and I wondered where Amuk had sourced it from.

Unless he sees fit to answer, I guess we'll be wondering forever.

Detlef

No, Amuk is not Sundanese, but he did live in West Jawa from, I think, about 2003. Not quite sure where he is at the moment, but probably still in Indonesia.

He is actually a very multi-talented man.

[David]

Originally Posted by Ian

Actually, Amuk did not mention the language that was used here, which is why there have been so many questions asked. You and Alan perhaps know him from posts in the Warung Kopi because you two are the only ones who have mentioned a Dutch connection.

The Dutch connection is in the spellings Amuk is using which are Dutch transliterations of specific native terms. The combination of "oe" is common to the Dutch.

Originally Posted by Ian

When you say:

What we might want to focus on is Amuk's first statements. Is this truly a good selection of "representative examples [that] illustrate the basic range"?

Is this actually what's being asked of us? If so, I would not have gathered that from Amuk's post.

Actually Ian, i don't believe Amuk is asking us for anything. It seems more likely that he is making a "presentation".

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by David

The Dutch connection is in the spellings Amuk is using which are Dutch transliterations of specific native terms. The combination of "oe" is common to the Dutch.

Yes David, I can confirm this is true!

[Spunjer]

thanks for the link, Alan.
i can't find the term "lanteh" by itself in Cowie's book either, other than where it's mentioned with the kris.

for what it's worth, a straight blade kalis is also known as Kalis Waysiku or Kalis Buntul, depending which part of Sulu you're from...

[Spunjer]

i really thought this particular post was going to be an interesting discussion, but evidently not...

it seems to be the hang up is the language used in the description of the krises. as Maurice has confirmed, it's a dutch transliterations of native terms. IMHO, the language is Bahasa Sug, language of the people of Sulu. Kris 5, 6 and 7 got my attention.

Per Amul:
5) Kalis Lanteh Bandoeh
6) Kalis Lanteh Liamai
7) Kalis Lanteh Agoeboekoe

Per Cowie's Book:
Kalis Lanteh Bandos
Kalis Lanteh Liamai
Kalis Lanteh Agau Buku

Then we have the numerical system:
Teloe
Lima
Pitoe
Siam
Hangpotaglima
Hangpotagesa
Kaoehantagteloe
Kaoehantagsiam

for the Bahasa Sug's system, i've attached a couple of pages from Cowie's book

then the term Sekoe (Siku in Bahasa Sug). oh, and Sarimanoek (Sarimanok)

so there it is. it would be nice if Amul can comment back. would love to know how you got the nomenclature for these krises. for the time being, here's what he said from another thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...7&postcount=12

the way i look at it, if those child-size kris pocket knives from Indonesia have unique nomenclature, why can't these krises have them as well. now it's just a matter of figuring out why it was called that way...

[David]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

the way i look at it, if those child-size kris pocket knives from Indonesia have unique nomenclature, why can't these krises have them as well.

Hey! I think thems might be fightin' words!
And just for a bit of support i am with you on Sarimanok.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for that clarification Ron.

I personally find this info on the language used very interesting indeed.

[Ian]

Ron:

I think it's not a lack of interest so much as a lack of knowledge that inhibits discussion somewhat. You have presented the evidence clearly and I think you are correct. Also, what Cato labels as Tausug in his terminology (as I presented above in the scanned image from his book) would seem to be the same language that you have called Bahasa Sug--a form of Malay spoken in the Sulu Archipelago a century ago, possibly showing some Visayan influence (which would not be surprising).

Ian.

Originally Posted by Spunjer

i really thought this particular post was going to be an interesting discussion, but evidently not...

it seems to be the hang up is the language used in the description of the krises. as Maurice has confirmed, it's a dutch transliterations of native terms. IMHO, the language is Bahasa Sug, language of the people of Sulu. ...

[Spunjer]

yes, the Tausug (per Cato), and Bahasa Sug is one and the same. the latter is the more formal term. and yes, the similarity is strong esp. with the southern Visayan dialects.