Kalis / Kris / Keris Sundang / Solot / Sulok / Suluk:

[Battara]

Alan, this would be my understanding and observation. Borneo, Malaysia, and the Philippines have these sizes and are outside the Dutch colonial sphere.

[Ian]

Amuk:

I am unfamiliar with many of these terms or the language that you have used. The word kalis is used by the Tausug to describe their kris, and several of the other words you use seem to be transliterations from Tausug. Can you explain a little more where these terms come from (place, language) and what they mean.

For comparison, I have attached a scan from Robert Cato's book, Moro Swords, p. 60, that has the common terms that he collected from Moro communities to describe kris and their various component parts in the Maguindanao, Maranao, and Tausug dialects.

Ian.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you gentlemen.

[Spunjer]

ian, the terms refer to the number of waves on kalis, as what they were called back in the days. the terms Amuk is using are probably Malay. i noticed kalis no. 6 on his list is similar to one of the terms used by the Tausugs back in the late 19th century. the terms below are taken from an old Tausug dictionary written by an Englishman that resided in Borneo.

kalis lanteh bandos
kalis lanteh ga-gamutsun
kalis lanteh liamai
kalis lanteh malanau
kalis lanteh janasuah
kalis lanteh agau buku

what i'm interested is the term that Amuk used to describe the pommel: Sarimanoek

as an addendum: the term lanteh, or lanti means wavy.

[A. G. Maisey]

Spunjer, please forgive me, but I feel that you may find that in Malay the word 'lanteh' means expert or skilled, and that 'lantih' is a variation of 'lanteh'. The word 'lanti' I do not believe exists in regular Malay, but may exist in a dialect. In Tausug 'lanteh' may mean 'wavy', but not in Malay

Amuk did ask us to ignore the names he has used:-

"This post is presented as is.
Should any of the labelling become a source of bewilderment/confusion, please do not be concerned. Simply ignore."

But what I personally find interesting is that Amuk has used spellings for many words that are spellings used in Bahasa Indonesia and Javanese prior to 1972, that is, they are B.I. or Javanese words spelt according to the Dutch way, not the English style that was adopted in 1972, and what is recognised now.

The "Desc." line gives the number of waves:

Javanese

sikoe = siku = elbow --- in the language used this is probably the word for 'wave' or 'bend'

teloe = telu = three

lima = lima = five

pitoe = pitu = seven

the other words that are numbers I do not recognise, however, they contain as syllables number words that are recognised. I believe we will find that we are looking at an Austronesian language rendered in Dutch spellings.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Amuk did ask us to ignore the names he has used:-

"This post is presented as is.
Should any of the labelling become a source of bewilderment/confusion, please do not be concerned. Simply ignore."

As Alan has pointed out, Amuk was pretty clear on the language used here...and yet, every response here has in some way referred to his odd terms and Dutch transliterations. Frankly, i suggest we take Amuk's suggestion and ignore these strange terms since i doubt they hold much weight as legitimate terminology from indigenous sources. I do understand Ron's interest in his use of the word "sarimanoek" (sarimanok) to describe the "kakatau" pommels and also find that interesting, but unless Amuk is interested in discussing his sources for these questionable terms (and it appears he is not), then i don't see much point in our desperate attempts to find reason in them.
As we already, the Moro are made up of numerous tribes, all with their own specific dialects. Even if these names were absolutely correct for a Tausug tribe member they would not be the same for the Maranao. As far as i can tell these terms seem to have originated with a pre-1972 Dutch colonialist who has perhaps incorporated and/or corrupted some Javanese or some other Austronesian languages to create these categories. Why saying "Kalis Naga Galap Lima Sikoe" should be any more correct than simply saying "Kris with Snake-like Five-Wave Blade" is beyond me in this case.
What we might want to focus on is Amuk's first statements. Is this truly a good selection of "representative examples [that] illustrate the basic range"?

[Ian]

Hi David:

Actually, Amuk did not mention the language that was used here, which is why there have been so many questions asked. You and Alan perhaps know him from posts in the Warung Kopi because you two are the only ones who have mentioned a Dutch connection.

As far as the sarimanoek/sarimanok connection, I think it is important to know where Amuk's use of that came from. Before Ron (spunjer) came up with the suggestion, I had never heard of it in connection with a kris hilt. It is possible Amuk has borrowed the term from this site, in which case it does not tell us anything more than Ron's original suggestion. If the source is different, then it adds support to Ron's suggestion.

As to whether Amuk has presented a representative group of kris on which to base a classification system, I tend to think they are not sufficiently representative of the major groups. What I'm seeing here are kris nearly all from the Sulu Archipelago, with perhaps one Maranao (far right) and no examples from the Maguindanao. Cato went to some length to describe the subtle differences in the kris from different Moro groups and, as shown in the plate from his book that I posted, the terms used for the kris vary by dialect.

Amuk's classification is based on the blade (number of luk) and shape of the hilt. I'm not aware that the number of luk have any major significance among the Moro--perhaps this is more important for the Indonesian keris. The usual classification is straight, semi-waved, and waved. And for hilt shapes, there are more varieties than the two basic types described by Amuk.

When you say:

What we might want to focus on is Amuk's first statements. Is this truly a good selection of "representative examples [that] illustrate the basic range"?

Is this actually what's being asked of us? If so, I would not have gathered that from Amuk's post.

Ian.

Originally Posted by David

As Alan has pointed out, Amuk was pretty clear on the language used here...and yet, every response here has in some way referred to his odd terms and Dutch transliterations. Frankly, i suggest we take Amuk's suggestion and ignore these strange terms since i doubt they hold much weight as legitimate terminology from indigenous sources. I do understand Ron's interest in his use of the word "sarimanoek" (sarimanok) to describe the "kakatau" pommels and also find that interesting, but unless Amuk is interested in discussing his sources for these questionable terms (and it appears he is not), then i don't see much point in our desperate attempts to find reason in them.
As we already, the Moro are made up of numerous tribes, all with their own specific dialects. Even if these names were absolutely correct for a Tausug tribe member they would not be the same for the Maranao. As far as i can tell these terms seem to have originated with a pre-1972 Dutch colonialist who has perhaps incorporated and/or corrupted some Javanese or some other Austronesian languages to create these categories. Why saying "Kalis Naga Galap Lima Sikoe" should be any more correct than simply saying "Kris with Snake-like Five-Wave Blade" is beyond me in this case.
What we might want to focus on is Amuk's first statements. Is this truly a good selection of "representative examples [that] illustrate the basic range"?

[A. G. Maisey]

Ian, to clarify the matter of language.

True, Amuk has not named the language used, but he did ask us to ignore the labelling, seemingly so, because he felt it might confuse us.

In other words, we are not expected to be able to understand the text he has provided, we just look at the pictures.

When what is now Indonesia was under Dutch control, the local languages were transliterated into Dutch spellings. Amuk usually writes Malay/Javanese/Sundanese and any other indigenous S.E.Asian languages that he may use, with this spelling.

I do not understand why he does this, but that is his style. This of course makes understanding his posts more than a little difficult sometimes, especially for anybody who does not have Indonesian as a second or first language (Indonesian is actually a form of Malay).

Different spellings have been used in Indonesia for over 40 years, and in fact younger Indonesians sometimes stumble on these old spellings too. The only reason I understand the words is because I began to learn Indonesian when the old spellings were still being used.

It would not surprise me if Amuk is using Sundanese, or possibly a dialect of this language. Sundanese is used in West Jawa, Javanese is used in most other parts of Jawa, both languages have regional variations, and both contain words that can be found in the other.

For instance, this word "sarimanoek", today this would be spelt "sarimanuk" in Indonesia. It is comprised of two words:- "sari", which has multiple meanings , but in this context it probably implies beauty, and "manuk", which means bird, so if I read that word as a Javanese word, I would understand it as "beautiful bird". But here it is not Javanese, however, the meaning is likely to be similar to "beautiful bird".

[David]

Originally Posted by Ian

Actually, Amuk did not mention the language that was used here, which is why there have been so many questions asked. You and Alan perhaps know him from posts in the Warung Kopi because you two are the only ones who have mentioned a Dutch connection.

The Dutch connection is in the spellings Amuk is using which are Dutch transliterations of specific native terms. The combination of "oe" is common to the Dutch.

Originally Posted by Ian

When you say:

What we might want to focus on is Amuk's first statements. Is this truly a good selection of "representative examples [that] illustrate the basic range"?

Is this actually what's being asked of us? If so, I would not have gathered that from Amuk's post.

Actually Ian, i don't believe Amuk is asking us for anything. It seems more likely that he is making a "presentation".