Kalis / Kris / Keris Sundang / Solot / Sulok / Suluk:

Battara · 28th March 2016, 02:53 PM

In addition to Ron's question, are there specific regions that are associated with this nomenclature?

A. G. Maisey · 28th March 2016, 10:28 PM

These over-size keris-like things are well outside my field of knowledge, but it has always been my understanding that they came from areas that were relatively free of Dutch influence, and that when the spellings of names were romanised, Dutch transliterations were not used to render those names.

Is my understanding incorrect?

Thanks.

Battara · 28th March 2016, 10:49 PM

Alan, this would be my understanding and observation. Borneo, Malaysia, and the Philippines have these sizes and are outside the Dutch colonial sphere.

Ian · 29th March 2016, 12:53 AM

Amuk:

I am unfamiliar with many of these terms or the language that you have used. The word kalis is used by the Tausug to describe their kris, and several of the other words you use seem to be transliterations from Tausug. Can you explain a little more where these terms come from (place, language) and what they mean.

For comparison, I have attached a scan from Robert Cato's book, Moro Swords, p. 60, that has the common terms that he collected from Moro communities to describe kris and their various component parts in the Maguindanao, Maranao, and Tausug dialects.

Ian.

A. G. Maisey · 29th March 2016, 02:05 AM

Thank you gentlemen.

Spunjer · 29th March 2016, 02:50 AM

ian, the terms refer to the number of waves on kalis, as what they were called back in the days. the terms Amuk is using are probably Malay. i noticed kalis no. 6 on his list is similar to one of the terms used by the Tausugs back in the late 19th century. the terms below are taken from an old Tausug dictionary written by an Englishman that resided in Borneo.

kalis lanteh bandos
kalis lanteh ga-gamutsun
kalis lanteh liamai
kalis lanteh malanau
kalis lanteh janasuah
kalis lanteh agau buku

what i'm interested is the term that Amuk used to describe the pommel: Sarimanoek

as an addendum: the term lanteh, or lanti means wavy.

A. G. Maisey · 29th March 2016, 08:31 AM

Spunjer, please forgive me, but I feel that you may find that in Malay the word 'lanteh' means expert or skilled, and that 'lantih' is a variation of 'lanteh'. The word 'lanti' I do not believe exists in regular Malay, but may exist in a dialect. In Tausug 'lanteh' may mean 'wavy', but not in Malay

Amuk did ask us to ignore the names he has used:-

"This post is presented as is.
Should any of the labelling become a source of bewilderment/confusion, please do not be concerned. Simply ignore."

But what I personally find interesting is that Amuk has used spellings for many words that are spellings used in Bahasa Indonesia and Javanese prior to 1972, that is, they are B.I. or Javanese words spelt according to the Dutch way, not the English style that was adopted in 1972, and what is recognised now.

The "Desc." line gives the number of waves:

Javanese

sikoe = siku = elbow --- in the language used this is probably the word for 'wave' or 'bend'

teloe = telu = three

lima = lima = five

pitoe = pitu = seven

the other words that are numbers I do not recognise, however, they contain as syllables number words that are recognised. I believe we will find that we are looking at an Austronesian language rendered in Dutch spellings.

David · 29th March 2016, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Amuk did ask us to ignore the names he has used:-

"This post is presented as is.
Should any of the labelling become a source of bewilderment/confusion, please do not be concerned. Simply ignore."

As Alan has pointed out, Amuk was pretty clear on the language used here...and yet, every response here has in some way referred to his odd terms and Dutch transliterations. Frankly, i suggest we take Amuk's suggestion and ignore these strange terms since i doubt they hold much weight as legitimate terminology from indigenous sources. I do understand Ron's interest in his use of the word "sarimanoek" (sarimanok) to describe the "kakatau" pommels and also find that interesting, but unless Amuk is interested in discussing his sources for these questionable terms (and it appears he is not), then i don't see much point in our desperate attempts to find reason in them.
As we already, the Moro are made up of numerous tribes, all with their own specific dialects. Even if these names were absolutely correct for a Tausug tribe member they would not be the same for the Maranao. As far as i can tell these terms seem to have originated with a pre-1972 Dutch colonialist who has perhaps incorporated and/or corrupted some Javanese or some other Austronesian languages to create these categories. Why saying "Kalis Naga Galap Lima Sikoe" should be any more correct than simply saying "Kris with Snake-like Five-Wave Blade" is beyond me in this case.

What we might want to focus on is Amuk's first statements. Is this truly a good selection of "representative examples [that] illustrate the basic range"?

29th March 2016, 12:53 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,360	Amuk: I am unfamiliar with many of these terms or the language that you have used. The word kalis is used by the Tausug to describe their kris, and several of the other words you use seem to be transliterations from Tausug. Can you explain a little more where these terms come from (place, language) and what they mean. For comparison, I have attached a scan from Robert Cato's book, Moro Swords, p. 60, that has the common terms that he collected from Moro communities to describe kris and their various component parts in the Maguindanao, Maranao, and Tausug dialects. Ian. Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 29th March 2016 at 01:04 AM.

29th March 2016, 02:50 AM	#6
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	ian, the terms refer to the number of waves on kalis, as what they were called back in the days. the terms Amuk is using are probably Malay. i noticed kalis no. 6 on his list is similar to one of the terms used by the Tausugs back in the late 19th century. the terms below are taken from an old Tausug dictionary written by an Englishman that resided in Borneo. kalis lanteh bandos kalis lanteh ga-gamutsun kalis lanteh liamai kalis lanteh malanau kalis lanteh janasuah kalis lanteh agau buku what i'm interested is the term that Amuk used to describe the pommel: Sarimanoek as an addendum: the term lanteh, or lanti means wavy. Last edited by Spunjer; 29th March 2016 at 03:58 AM.

28th March 2016, 02:53 PM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,270	In addition to Ron's question, are there specific regions that are associated with this nomenclature?

28th March 2016, 10:28 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,988	These over-size keris-like things are well outside my field of knowledge, but it has always been my understanding that they came from areas that were relatively free of Dutch influence, and that when the spellings of names were romanised, Dutch transliterations were not used to render those names. Is my understanding incorrect? Thanks.

28th March 2016, 10:49 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,270	Alan, this would be my understanding and observation. Borneo, Malaysia, and the Philippines have these sizes and are outside the Dutch colonial sphere.

29th March 2016, 02:05 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,988	Thank you gentlemen.

29th March 2016, 08:31 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,988	Spunjer, please forgive me, but I feel that you may find that in Malay the word 'lanteh' means expert or skilled, and that 'lantih' is a variation of 'lanteh'. The word 'lanti' I do not believe exists in regular Malay, but may exist in a dialect. In Tausug 'lanteh' may mean 'wavy', but not in Malay Amuk did ask us to ignore the names he has used:- "This post is presented as is. Should any of the labelling become a source of bewilderment/confusion, please do not be concerned. Simply ignore." But what I personally find interesting is that Amuk has used spellings for many words that are spellings used in Bahasa Indonesia and Javanese prior to 1972, that is, they are B.I. or Javanese words spelt according to the Dutch way, not the English style that was adopted in 1972, and what is recognised now. The "Desc." line gives the number of waves: Javanese sikoe = siku = elbow --- in the language used this is probably the word for 'wave' or 'bend' teloe = telu = three lima = lima = five pitoe = pitu = seven the other words that are numbers I do not recognise, however, they contain as syllables number words that are recognised. I believe we will find that we are looking at an Austronesian language rendered in Dutch spellings.