An old Tibetan warrior

ariel · 6th March 2016, 06:12 PM

I agree. Tibet was always "forbidden place" for the Westerners. For centuries, their only outside contacts were essentially with China and Mongolia. The Younghusband expedition opened a small crack into it, but Japanese occupation of China and following civil wars once again made Tibet a very unattractive place to venture in.
And, finally, Chinese occupation...

All in all, real Tibetan antiques and especially weapons are almost unobtainable.

BTW, Tibet had very aggressive military policies centuries ago, but the current Dalai Lama conducted a brilliant PR campaign to re-market Tibet for the Western consumption as a peaceful paradise.
Had it not been for LaRocca's book, most of us would have never known that there are such things as Tibetan weapons.

ariel · 6th March 2016, 06:44 PM

Here are 4 of mine.
A short Tse Psa ( Gavin calls it Ral Gri, and I am not going to argue, because AFAIK nobody really knows how to pronounce Tibetan words :-)))

Then, a long palash Ke Tri ( ot Ge Dzhi, see above).

Then an Eastern Tibetan palash

And, finally a Kora, purportedly Tibetan because of its slender structure ( not sure if it is true).

Jim McDougall · 6th March 2016, 07:07 PM

Ariel,
Thank you so much for the great input on this , and these very nice examples.
Actually the term Gav uses is correct as I mentioned was included in conversations with Philip Tom and the data from LaRocca.

All best regards
Jim

estcrh · 9th March 2016, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

And, finally a Kora, purportedly Tibetan because of its slender structure ( not sure if it is true).

Ariel, here is a kora on the left that Gavin sold which he identifies as Tibetan compared to the one you posted which appears to be be from Nepal but someone with more knowledge might comfirm this.

Gavin Nugent · 13th March 2016, 01:24 PM

Nice Kora Ariel,

I'd be inclined to pin yours down as Tibet too.

To my eye but without formal factual data to back it up, the rounded Stupa pommel arrangement, the form of the disc guard and the slender blade point to Tibet for me.

I'd love to replace the very early Tibetan Kora I sold years ago but the wheels must keep turning so other treasures like the Tibet sword can be obtained and studied.

Gavin

Gavin Nugent · 16th March 2016, 06:26 AM

Perhaps a new thread or an old Kora thread should be revived....this image of a Sikh holding a Kora, although a line drawing from the 19th century puts an alternative perspective on the early type when viewing the hilt.

Gavin

kronckew · 16th March 2016, 09:30 AM

poor guy looks under armed. needs a couple of quivers too. and a few more knives.

dennee · 16th March 2016, 02:27 PM

I'd love to see any solid attributions of 'koras' to Tibet. There were certainly examples found there, whether or not any actually originated there. There are some early to mid-twentieth-century photos of religious dancers with koras, and these are of this type: narrow, with a very convex end.

But I haven't seen koras in other period photos or paintings from Tibet or in monasteries. I have seen talwars, 'katars,' Indian shields, etc. Weapons made their way into Tibet in any number of ways (including Gorkha invasions), and many were donated to the protector chapels in monasteries. Koras may have been attractive for ceremonial use because of their exotic appearance and origins, rather like the flamboyant archaic Indian sword forms remaining in Buddhist art.

One could certainly argue that the medial ridge found on this type has more in common with Indian swords than Tibetan, which were more heavily influenced by Chinese weapons. (Such a ridge is probably structurally necessary on such a narrow sword.) Of course, we lack truly ancient Tibetan swords (although I hear there's a sword in Bhutan that is said to be more than a thousand years old, although I believe it was derived from the Chinese pallasch, as you would expect).

There also appear to be rare examples of what folks have called "Tibetan" kukris, presumably made in Nepal using hairpin-laminated steel. I don't have any photos, so I don't know if they were made from scratch or fashioned from Tibetan trade blades.

estcrh · 17th March 2016, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Perhaps a new thread or an old Kora thread should be revived....this image of a Sikh holding a Kora, although a line drawing from the 19th century puts an alternative perspective on the early type when viewing the hilt.

Gavin

Here is a comparison between Gavins kora (lt) and a kora from Artzi (rt), with the Indian kora drawing in the middle, with Gavins being described as Tibetan and Artzis described as being Central / North Indian. The Indian kora drawing has a different blade type and hilt. Gavins and Artzis kora seem to be of the same type.

Below is George stones kora description with Arials kora on the bottom right, which looks just like the kora that Stone describes as being from Nepal. Both of the kora that Stone describes as being from Tibet seem to have a different blade type fron the Nepal kora.

dennee · 17th March 2016, 03:54 PM

Yes, Stone appears to be the origin of the terminology. Without his catalog, the issue would probably never have been raised. But if he is the first word on the subject, shall we accept him as the final word? If he had been correct in all particulars throughout his catalog, I'd be more inclined in that direction.

Stone might be absolutely correct as to Tibet being the source of collection of that kora. As we have seen, there are or have been at least a few of that type documented in Tibet. But we have also seen that there were plenty of opportunities for them to get there through warfare and trade. So, we can't yet be positive of their being manufactured there.

6th March 2016, 06:44 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Here are 4 of mine. A short Tse Psa ( Gavin calls it Ral Gri, and I am not going to argue, because AFAIK nobody really knows how to pronounce Tibetan words :-))) Then, a long palash Ke Tri ( ot Ge Dzhi, see above). Then an Eastern Tibetan palash And, finally a Kora, purportedly Tibetan because of its slender structure ( not sure if it is true). Attached Images

16th March 2016, 06:26 AM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Perhaps a new thread or an old Kora thread should be revived....this image of a Sikh holding a Kora, although a line drawing from the 19th century puts an alternative perspective on the early type when viewing the hilt. Gavin Attached Images

6th March 2016, 06:12 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I agree. Tibet was always "forbidden place" for the Westerners. For centuries, their only outside contacts were essentially with China and Mongolia. The Younghusband expedition opened a small crack into it, but Japanese occupation of China and following civil wars once again made Tibet a very unattractive place to venture in. And, finally, Chinese occupation... All in all, real Tibetan antiques and especially weapons are almost unobtainable. BTW, Tibet had very aggressive military policies centuries ago, but the current Dalai Lama conducted a brilliant PR campaign to re-market Tibet for the Western consumption as a peaceful paradise. Had it not been for LaRocca's book, most of us would have never known that there are such things as Tibetan weapons.

6th March 2016, 07:07 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Ariel, Thank you so much for the great input on this , and these very nice examples. Actually the term Gav uses is correct as I mentioned was included in conversations with Philip Tom and the data from LaRocca. All best regards Jim

13th March 2016, 01:24 PM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Nice Kora Ariel, I'd be inclined to pin yours down as Tibet too. To my eye but without formal factual data to back it up, the rounded Stupa pommel arrangement, the form of the disc guard and the slender blade point to Tibet for me. I'd love to replace the very early Tibetan Kora I sold years ago but the wheels must keep turning so other treasures like the Tibet sword can be obtained and studied. Gavin

16th March 2016, 09:30 AM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	poor guy looks under armed. needs a couple of quivers too. and a few more knives.

16th March 2016, 02:27 PM	#8
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	I'd love to see any solid attributions of 'koras' to Tibet. There were certainly examples found there, whether or not any actually originated there. There are some early to mid-twentieth-century photos of religious dancers with koras, and these are of this type: narrow, with a very convex end. But I haven't seen koras in other period photos or paintings from Tibet or in monasteries. I have seen talwars, 'katars,' Indian shields, etc. Weapons made their way into Tibet in any number of ways (including Gorkha invasions), and many were donated to the protector chapels in monasteries. Koras may have been attractive for ceremonial use because of their exotic appearance and origins, rather like the flamboyant archaic Indian sword forms remaining in Buddhist art. One could certainly argue that the medial ridge found on this type has more in common with Indian swords than Tibetan, which were more heavily influenced by Chinese weapons. (Such a ridge is probably structurally necessary on such a narrow sword.) Of course, we lack truly ancient Tibetan swords (although I hear there's a sword in Bhutan that is said to be more than a thousand years old, although I believe it was derived from the Chinese pallasch, as you would expect). There also appear to be rare examples of what folks have called "Tibetan" kukris, presumably made in Nepal using hairpin-laminated steel. I don't have any photos, so I don't know if they were made from scratch or fashioned from Tibetan trade blades.

17th March 2016, 03:54 PM	#10
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Yes, Stone appears to be the origin of the terminology. Without his catalog, the issue would probably never have been raised. But if he is the first word on the subject, shall we accept him as the final word? If he had been correct in all particulars throughout his catalog, I'd be more inclined in that direction. Stone might be absolutely correct as to Tibet being the source of collection of that kora. As we have seen, there are or have been at least a few of that type documented in Tibet. But we have also seen that there were plenty of opportunities for them to get there through warfare and trade. So, we can't yet be positive of their being manufactured there.