First Choora

Bob A · 4th March 2016, 04:26 AM

Well, after posting, I looked around online at a number of these knives, and found that the decorations on the hilt were rather more common that I had recalled, and rather similar to yours. So score one against my shooting from the lip, so to speak.

Still, the markings on the flat of the blade continue to give me pause, so it's possible that I'm not quite so inept a fool as I give myself credit for being.

As to brass or gold, I'm inclined toward brass, but that's probably easily answered by a jeweler/pawnbroker, who will have a test kit for determining that sort of thing fairly easily.

If there's any other faulty information I can offer you, don't hesitate to ask.

estcrh · 4th March 2016, 06:50 AM

The origin and dating of the small Afghan dagger currently called "choora" is rather murky, Here is George Stone's discription and image. The bottom photo seems to show a choora being worn, it is from around 1920, from an album of 65 photographs compiled by Major General W M Kirke, Waziristan, North West Frontier (1920-1937). National Army Museum, Study collection.

Quote:

Mahsuds in Waziristan, circa 1920.

The Mahsuds were Pathan tribesmen who inhabited Waziristan. They were probably the most formidable fighters on the frontier. Highly mobile, able to live off the most meagre rations, and fine shots, they were perfectly adapted to their mountainous homeland. Fiercely independent, they had honed their fighting skills by years of raiding the settled areas to the east, along the Indus, and by attacking the trading caravans that travelled to and from Afghanistan. In 1919 their fighting strength was estimated at over 11,000 warriors. Only the most experienced and well-trained British and Indian units could match the Mahsud in frontier fighting.

harrywagner · 4th March 2016, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

The origin and dating of the small Afghan dagger currently called "choora" is rather murky, Here is George Stone's discription and image. The bottom photo seems to show a choora being worn, it is from around 1920, from an album of 65 photographs compiled by Major General W M Kirke, Waziristan, North West Frontier (1920-1937). National Army Museum, Study collection.

Thanks estcrh! I love that photo. I did not realize I was resurrecting a contentious debate when I wrote that I thought it was 19c. The fullers on this one and the one in the photo you have provided look the same to me. I would call it a fuller "on steroids".

ariel · 4th March 2016, 01:24 PM

Harry,
Chooras are very much a " redneck" weapon, and I have never seen any gold on one of them. A slab of ivory for a hilt was the highest they aspired to. Brass, on the other hand, was rampant both in the 19 as well as 20 centuries. They used it widely both for certain parts as well as for decoration.
Dating chooras is difficult, don't kick yourself. There are very few inscribed ones, and we largely go by the condition of the example. I showed here two with worn out and beetle-eaten wooden scabbards with glued-on paper labels showing dates ( of collection?)around 1850. The veracity of dated labels was confirmed by a world-class professional in restoring/preserving old islamic manuscripts and their covers. That's likely the best we can do...... The only unquestionably old example I know is pictured by Egerton in his book, and this only because of the year the book was published.

I would also date yours to the mid-20 century the earliest, but strictly on the basis of its condition. Don't despair: they haven't changed one iota over almost 200 years. Enjoy!

harrywagner · 4th March 2016, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Harry,
Chooras are very much a " redneck" weapon, and I have never seen any gold on one of them. A slab of ivory for a hilt was the highest they aspired to. Brass, on the other hand, was rampant both in the 19 as well as 20 centuries. They used it widely both for certain parts as well as for decoration.
Dating chooras is difficult, don't kick yourself. There are very few inscribed ones, and we largely go by the condition of the example. I showed here two with worn out and beetle-eaten wooden scabbards with glued-on paper labels showing dates ( of collection?)around 1850. The veracity of dated labels was confirmed by a world-class professional in restoring/preserving old islamic manuscripts and their covers. That's likely the best we can do...... The only unquestionably old example I know is pictured by Egerton in his book, and this only because of the year the book was published.

I would also date yours to the mid-20 century the earliest, but strictly on the basis of its condition. Don't despair: they haven't changed one iota over almost 200 years. Enjoy!

Thanks Ariel! No reason for despair here. This one exceeds my expectations. I did not think I would find one as nice as this, and that was within my budget. I'm going to catalog it as having brass inserts and mid 20th, or possibly a little older. I still don't understand the blade. It looks like it has been segmented into a series of panels, each with a different design, yet it is smooth. I don't have a clue how this was done.

Jim McDougall · 4th March 2016, 07:26 PM

While looking further into these interesting and unique daggers we now term 'choora',as explained in earlier posts, I would like to express some thoughts on the possible origins of this apparent variant form of 'karud'.
It seems it has been suggested that in many cases karud blades have been remounted in these uniquely charactered hilts.

In looking at the map earlier posted, the Mahsud territories are directly adjacent to Bannu, and Egerton I believe did note Bannu provenance to one of these.

Some will recall discussions we have had regarding the small 'crow beak' type pickaxes which have been termed (in these collectors parlances), the 'lohar'. Stone claims they are attributed to the 'Banochie' (Bannuchi) tribes of Khyber regions (pp. 418-19). While this attribution may have some merit, the term for these, 'lohar' is believed to derive from itinerant blacksmiths of Rajasthani ancestry known as the Gadia Lohars (the term lohar may be Hindi for iron).

In some of the later (1920s+) versions of these they are folding (as attached) and the general themes of motif seem to correspond to these 'choora' in cases.

The pickaxe lohars are actually quite small, and suggest being covert weapons during British occupations in these areas where obviously arms were prohibited so easily concealed. Possibly these small daggers (often seeming to be small cousins of the larger Khyber knives) might have been produced by these 'Lohars' also, and became a locally favored form.

As seen by Egerton, his sketch seems to approximate the hooked style of the pommel of these (see also the lohar of 20th c. carrying similar style) but he termed it simply pesh kabz as the collective term for some of these forms .

It seems I was once told these 'choora' are typically without wootz blades. Possibly those which are actually have remounted karud blades which of course have the same basic profile?

Gav, thank you for the kind words on my earlier post.

Mahratt, I hope you might consider my suggestions here as you I know have done quite a bit of research on these daggers, and I wonder if you think this perspective might be viable.

Harry, as Ariel has noted, though it is very difficult to date these, it must be remembered that these weapons from those regions in the early 20t into the 1930s were in every bit as much drama, combat and intrigue as through the previous century. These are the regions of the "Great Game" and I would recommend getting that book by Peter Hopkirk which would add tremendous dimension to this wonderful dagger.

harrywagner · 5th March 2016, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Harry, as Ariel has noted, though it is very difficult to date these, it must be remembered that these weapons from those regions in the early 20t into the 1930s were in every bit as much drama, combat and intrigue as through the previous century. These are the regions of the "Great Game" and I would recommend getting that book by Peter Hopkirk which would add tremendous dimension to this wonderful dagger.

Thanks Jim! I will add that book to my reading list. We have an outstanding library where I live so I am fairly certain I can borrow a copy. I am not worried at all about this knife's age. It's not new, nor a fake, reproduction nor tourist piece, so I am happy. Thanks again for your help!

ariel · 6th March 2016, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It seems I was once told these 'choora' are typically without wootz blades. Possibly those which are actually have remounted karud blades which of course have the same basic profile?

Jim, I suspect the same.

Both "Choora" and " Karud" are essentially the same pattern. Their blades are identical in form and dimensions. In contrast, their handles vary enormously. The only explanation of the difference is likely to be a place of manufacture ( or, if one wishes, ethnicity of the manufacturers)

We know of the so-called "Karuds" that they were made and used in Afghanistan, Central Asia and India, In contrast, "Choora" was always ascribed to the Khyber Pass area, and there are no known examples from other parts of Afghanistan or Central Asian Khanates.

IMXO, most likely explanation is the tribal belonging of the owner/ maker.

Trade blades traveled far and wide, but were mounted according to the ethnic/tribal identity of the end owner.
The same Persian saber blade could become an Indian Tulwar, Afghani Pulwar, Syrian or South Arabian Saif, Georgian Khmali, Moroccan or Omani Nimcha, Sumatran Piso Podang or just Persian Shamshir. Trade yataghan blades were fitted with small silver Cretan handles or with massive ivory ones from the Balkans. Yemeni jambiyas can be attributed to a particular tribe/ social stratum only by the form and decoration of their hilts and scabbards. Egerton specifically mentioned that "Choora" blades were made in Kandahar ( likely plain) and Khorasan ( likely wootz).In Afghanistan, rich people could afford ivory handles and wootz blades.

I suspect that wootz blades were remounted time and again when the organic parts of the hilt broke down, because of their value and mystique.

4th March 2016, 07:26 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	While looking further into these interesting and unique daggers we now term 'choora',as explained in earlier posts, I would like to express some thoughts on the possible origins of this apparent variant form of 'karud'. It seems it has been suggested that in many cases karud blades have been remounted in these uniquely charactered hilts. In looking at the map earlier posted, the Mahsud territories are directly adjacent to Bannu, and Egerton I believe did note Bannu provenance to one of these. Some will recall discussions we have had regarding the small 'crow beak' type pickaxes which have been termed (in these collectors parlances), the 'lohar'. Stone claims they are attributed to the 'Banochie' (Bannuchi) tribes of Khyber regions (pp. 418-19). While this attribution may have some merit, the term for these, 'lohar' is believed to derive from itinerant blacksmiths of Rajasthani ancestry known as the Gadia Lohars (the term lohar may be Hindi for iron). In some of the later (1920s+) versions of these they are folding (as attached) and the general themes of motif seem to correspond to these 'choora' in cases. The pickaxe lohars are actually quite small, and suggest being covert weapons during British occupations in these areas where obviously arms were prohibited so easily concealed. Possibly these small daggers (often seeming to be small cousins of the larger Khyber knives) might have been produced by these 'Lohars' also, and became a locally favored form. As seen by Egerton, his sketch seems to approximate the hooked style of the pommel of these (see also the lohar of 20th c. carrying similar style) but he termed it simply pesh kabz as the collective term for some of these forms . It seems I was once told these 'choora' are typically without wootz blades. Possibly those which are actually have remounted karud blades which of course have the same basic profile? Gav, thank you for the kind words on my earlier post. Mahratt, I hope you might consider my suggestions here as you I know have done quite a bit of research on these daggers, and I wonder if you think this perspective might be viable. Harry, as Ariel has noted, though it is very difficult to date these, it must be remembered that these weapons from those regions in the early 20t into the 1930s were in every bit as much drama, combat and intrigue as through the previous century. These are the regions of the "Great Game" and I would recommend getting that book by Peter Hopkirk which would add tremendous dimension to this wonderful dagger. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 4th March 2016 at 09:31 PM.

4th March 2016, 04:26 AM	#1
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 435	Well, after posting, I looked around online at a number of these knives, and found that the decorations on the hilt were rather more common that I had recalled, and rather similar to yours. So score one against my shooting from the lip, so to speak. Still, the markings on the flat of the blade continue to give me pause, so it's possible that I'm not quite so inept a fool as I give myself credit for being. As to brass or gold, I'm inclined toward brass, but that's probably easily answered by a jeweler/pawnbroker, who will have a test kit for determining that sort of thing fairly easily. If there's any other faulty information I can offer you, don't hesitate to ask.

4th March 2016, 01:24 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Harry, Chooras are very much a " redneck" weapon, and I have never seen any gold on one of them. A slab of ivory for a hilt was the highest they aspired to. Brass, on the other hand, was rampant both in the 19 as well as 20 centuries. They used it widely both for certain parts as well as for decoration. Dating chooras is difficult, don't kick yourself. There are very few inscribed ones, and we largely go by the condition of the example. I showed here two with worn out and beetle-eaten wooden scabbards with glued-on paper labels showing dates ( of collection?)around 1850. The veracity of dated labels was confirmed by a world-class professional in restoring/preserving old islamic manuscripts and their covers. That's likely the best we can do...... The only unquestionably old example I know is pictured by Egerton in his book, and this only because of the year the book was published. I would also date yours to the mid-20 century the earliest, but strictly on the basis of its condition. Don't despair: they haven't changed one iota over almost 200 years. Enjoy!