An old Tibetan warrior

Jim McDougall · 3rd March 2016, 04:46 AM

Gav, this is an absolutely astounding example of one of these Tibetan swords!!! which has led me into researching some old notes as it is (as far as I have known) almost unheard of to see a sharply pointed blade like this.
The usual blades on these swords, which I have discovered are not typically termed ke tri as long believed, are of course the rather hatchet tipped single edged blades.

Apparantly (and according to Donald LaRocca , "Warriors of the Himalayas" Rediscovering the Arms and Armour of Tibet", N.Y. 2006) this particular example refers to the RAL GRI.
* RAL GRI: sword type with usually shorter blade where tip comes to an acute tapering point (in manner of Scottish dirk).

The regularly seen Tibetan sword with hatchet type point is termed DPA DAM (also Pa TAM).

The Chinese ancestry of these comes from the ancient 'zhibeidao' with straight SE blade with oblique or angled tip.

It is noted that these RAL GRI swords were typically carried by Tibetan chieftains, and a reference cited to Lt Col. Laurence Austine Waddell, consultant on the 1904 Younghusband expedition into Tibet, he notes,
"...a few nomad chiefs had shortish swords with a pointed tip.
- from "Armies of the 19th c: Central Asian and Himalayan Kingdoms", Ian Heath, 1998.

In looking at various examples of Tibetan swords online, I found a couple of this trilobate style ( which I refer to as RAL GRI as noted) which did have these sharp points, and were indeed much shorter than the usually encountered forms .

Both Philip Tom and Peter Dekker contributed to these online discussions in November of 2008 .

I would say this is likely to be a key example of one of these swords for a Tibetan chieftain and of the 19th century, perhaps much earlier than the 1904 events noted. Possibly these became shorter later in the century as they became less combatively required?RAL GRI

Jim McDougall · 6th March 2016, 04:36 PM

Truly astounding.....253 views on this, and no comments.
Gav, personally I thank you for posting this, and it was a great opportunity to look further into these Tibetan swords.
Hopefully of those out there reading this, someone might have an idea or some information which might add something further.

Shakethetrees · 6th March 2016, 05:38 PM

Very interesting and well made weapons! I wouldn't mind having one or two examples myself.

However, I would like to hazard a guess as to why there are so few replies. These weapons are so scarcely encountered and there has been so little published on them that most of us out here are totally unfamiliar!

Tibet and Bhutan are so remote and removed from the discussion of history and politics that in many circles all you get is a blank look when they are mentioned.

Only in recent times has tourism by more than a handful of westerners been readily possible.

And only briefly in the last 100 years and in WWII has there ever been even minor Western military presence.

I do not believe, (and I could be wrong here!), that either place has had any significant presence of Western missionaries.

Back in the heyday of collection building in the 19th century, missionaries, military, and business tourism/exploration were the primary customary manner by which ethnographic material arrived on Western shores.

Except for the few pieces making their way West via a small trickle-out along diplomatic or traditional trade, you just don't see them.

Jim McDougall · 6th March 2016, 05:56 PM

The things you point out are very true, and thank you so much for writing here. That was a thoughtful thing to do.
I can only speak for myself, in that these kinds of unusual and esoteric weapons are inherently exciting and all the more interesting for these very reasons.
I am a desperately curious person, and obsessive research maniac

as can be seen in the many years Ive written here.
My goal has always been to search, find, study and share information and to place it here in hopes of us all learning together.

With the net these days it is unbelievable that I can find online things that used to take me months even years to find in the early years B.C. (before computers!).

Many guys are discouraged from certain kinds of weapons because they cannot afford or find them. For me, I learned long ago that it was the learning, not the collecting that was my thing. The beauty of these pages is that I can enjoy and learn from the pieces other guys who can find and buy them. The added plus is that we all can.

Thank you again for adding your comments here, very much appreciated.

ariel · 6th March 2016, 06:12 PM

I agree. Tibet was always "forbidden place" for the Westerners. For centuries, their only outside contacts were essentially with China and Mongolia. The Younghusband expedition opened a small crack into it, but Japanese occupation of China and following civil wars once again made Tibet a very unattractive place to venture in.
And, finally, Chinese occupation...

All in all, real Tibetan antiques and especially weapons are almost unobtainable.

BTW, Tibet had very aggressive military policies centuries ago, but the current Dalai Lama conducted a brilliant PR campaign to re-market Tibet for the Western consumption as a peaceful paradise.
Had it not been for LaRocca's book, most of us would have never known that there are such things as Tibetan weapons.

ariel · 6th March 2016, 06:44 PM

Here are 4 of mine.
A short Tse Psa ( Gavin calls it Ral Gri, and I am not going to argue, because AFAIK nobody really knows how to pronounce Tibetan words :-)))

Then, a long palash Ke Tri ( ot Ge Dzhi, see above).

Then an Eastern Tibetan palash

And, finally a Kora, purportedly Tibetan because of its slender structure ( not sure if it is true).

Jim McDougall · 6th March 2016, 07:07 PM

Ariel,
Thank you so much for the great input on this , and these very nice examples.
Actually the term Gav uses is correct as I mentioned was included in conversations with Philip Tom and the data from LaRocca.

All best regards
Jim

estcrh · 9th March 2016, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

And, finally a Kora, purportedly Tibetan because of its slender structure ( not sure if it is true).

Ariel, here is a kora on the left that Gavin sold which he identifies as Tibetan compared to the one you posted which appears to be be from Nepal but someone with more knowledge might comfirm this.

Gavin Nugent · 13th March 2016, 01:24 PM

Nice Kora Ariel,

I'd be inclined to pin yours down as Tibet too.

To my eye but without formal factual data to back it up, the rounded Stupa pommel arrangement, the form of the disc guard and the slender blade point to Tibet for me.

I'd love to replace the very early Tibetan Kora I sold years ago but the wheels must keep turning so other treasures like the Tibet sword can be obtained and studied.

Gavin

Gavin Nugent · 6th March 2016, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Truly astounding.....253 views on this, and no comments.
Gav, personally I thank you for posting this, and it was a great opportunity to look further into these Tibetan swords.
Hopefully of those out there reading this, someone might have an idea or some information which might add something further.

Jim,

Thank you for giving it a little bump to the top. Shakethetree and Ariel, thank you for entering the discussion, it is nice to see some life put in to such a rare and interesting sword and to view other examples.

Ariel, Jim, I have not here or elsewhere that I can recall in recent times, referenced a native name to these sword types but Jim, you're spot on with the definitions as far as I know them.

With reference to sword type names, I have attached photos from LaRocca's exceptional work, particularly the glossary of terms in the back of the book, see below.

Shakethetrees, if you do not have the book noted, spend the $40-50 to own a copy, it might cure your need to buy the sword types.

Gavin

ariel · 7th March 2016, 12:09 AM

Gavin and Jim,
I learn by osmosis:-)
Ke Tri and Tsep Sa is something I absorbed from Artzi' site. Look there for "Tibetan sword"

I have LaRocca's book and even happened to see the actual exhibition. I trust his references, but where did Artzi get his names? He did not invent them, after all.

Dpa' dam is listed by LaRocca as Sked Gri. Is it Ke Tri, pronounced slightly differently?
Are there differences between spear-pointed and hatchet-pointed blades?

One needs to be born in in a monastery in Lhasa to figure out how to pronounce those convoluted strings of letters:-))))

Philip · 7th March 2016, 07:12 AM

In Donald LaRocca's excellent catalogue of the exhibition WARRIORS OF THE HIMALAYAS, the spellings used are the "academic" transliterations. Likewise, the spellings of Sanskrit words in Dr Robert Elgood's HINDU ARMS AND RITUAL are the transliterations used in scholarly texts; both can be more than a little daunting to laymen trying to pronounce them!

In personal correspondence with Mr LaRocca some years ago, I brought up the term "ke tri" and was informed that there was no such term applicable to the classification of sword types. In identifying Tibetan swords by blade shape, the three most useful and accurate ones for students and collectors seem to be ral gri (acutely pointed blade), dpa dam (parallel-sided, straight, oblique tip profile), and shang-lang (convex curve, i.e. a saber, rarely encountered).

ariel · 7th March 2016, 09:38 AM

Philip,
The same Donald LaRocca gives a variant name of Dpa Dam as Sked Gri. Isn't it the very same Ke Tri that we knew as a definition for straight , parallel sided, hatchet-pointed blades?

You are right: academic phonetizations vs. "street" ones are always different. Professor Higgins made a living of it long time ago :-)))

And on top of it, local accents and dialects add yet another level of complexity /confusion. Australian English vs. Glaswegian, vs. Southern American, vs. Midwest vs " Brooklinese" or Bostonian etc, etc sound differently . And each of them would be transliterated differently by well -meaning educated persons of different ethnic backgrounds and different native languages.

Kilich, Klych or Kilij? Kard, Kord or Karud? Shashka or Chacheka?
That would be just a funny "name game" had it not been the mechanism of "creating" artificial terminology for the allegedly different variety of weapons we are dealing with.
Rather amusing, isn't it?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 7th March 2016, 01:04 PM

Salaams All Tibetan weapons must be one of the most difficulot subjects in our entire ensemble thus I note how well this thread examines this extraordinary subject . I offer this from https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/tb...tbar.htmSwords

Quote."Swords were the primary handheld weapons in Tibet from at least the seventh up to the early twentieth century. In addition to their utilitarian function, they could also be clear indicators of rank and status, based on their quality or amount of decoration. In some situations, such as among the Khampa tribesmen of eastern Tibet, the sword was an essential part of male dress and still remains an important element of traditional attire. The sword also has rich symbolic significance within Tibetan Buddhism, particularly as the Sword of Wisdom, which represents the ability to cut through spiritual ignorance, and is an important attribute of many deities, such as Manjushri.

Many Tibetan swords are distinguished by light and dark lines that make a hairpin-shaped pattern visible on the surface of the blade (36.25.1464). This was formed by combining harder and softer iron, referred to as “male iron” and female iron” in traditional Tibetan texts, which was folded, nested together, and forged into one piece in a blade-making technique called pattern welding. The hilts are often made of engraved silver set with coral or turquoise, or in some rare instances are intricately chiseled and pierced in iron that is damascened in gold and silver (1995.136)".Unquote.

See also http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/13/ar...armo.html?_r=0

https://books.google.com.om/books?id...eapons&f=false

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

3rd March 2016, 04:46 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	This is a 'RAL GRI' Gav, this is an absolutely astounding example of one of these Tibetan swords!!! which has led me into researching some old notes as it is (as far as I have known) almost unheard of to see a sharply pointed blade like this. The usual blades on these swords, which I have discovered are not typically termed ke tri as long believed, are of course the rather hatchet tipped single edged blades. Apparantly (and according to Donald LaRocca , "Warriors of the Himalayas" Rediscovering the Arms and Armour of Tibet", N.Y. 2006) this particular example refers to the RAL GRI. * RAL GRI: sword type with usually shorter blade where tip comes to an acute tapering point (in manner of Scottish dirk). The regularly seen Tibetan sword with hatchet type point is termed DPA DAM (also Pa TAM). The Chinese ancestry of these comes from the ancient 'zhibeidao' with straight SE blade with oblique or angled tip. It is noted that these RAL GRI swords were typically carried by Tibetan chieftains, and a reference cited to Lt Col. Laurence Austine Waddell, consultant on the 1904 Younghusband expedition into Tibet, he notes, "...a few nomad chiefs had shortish swords with a pointed tip. - from "Armies of the 19th c: Central Asian and Himalayan Kingdoms", Ian Heath, 1998. In looking at various examples of Tibetan swords online, I found a couple of this trilobate style ( which I refer to as RAL GRI as noted) which did have these sharp points, and were indeed much shorter than the usually encountered forms . Both Philip Tom and Peter Dekker contributed to these online discussions in November of 2008 . I would say this is likely to be a key example of one of these swords for a Tibetan chieftain and of the 19th century, perhaps much earlier than the 1904 events noted. Possibly these became shorter later in the century as they became less combatively required?RAL GRI

6th March 2016, 06:44 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Here are 4 of mine. A short Tse Psa ( Gavin calls it Ral Gri, and I am not going to argue, because AFAIK nobody really knows how to pronounce Tibetan words :-))) Then, a long palash Ke Tri ( ot Ge Dzhi, see above). Then an Eastern Tibetan palash And, finally a Kora, purportedly Tibetan because of its slender structure ( not sure if it is true). Attached Images

7th March 2016, 07:12 AM	#12
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Tibetan arms terminology In Donald LaRocca's excellent catalogue of the exhibition WARRIORS OF THE HIMALAYAS, the spellings used are the "academic" transliterations. Likewise, the spellings of Sanskrit words in Dr Robert Elgood's HINDU ARMS AND RITUAL are the transliterations used in scholarly texts; both can be more than a little daunting to laymen trying to pronounce them! In personal correspondence with Mr LaRocca some years ago, I brought up the term "ke tri" and was informed that there was no such term applicable to the classification of sword types. In identifying Tibetan swords by blade shape, the three most useful and accurate ones for students and collectors seem to be ral gri (acutely pointed blade), dpa dam (parallel-sided, straight, oblique tip profile), and shang-lang (convex curve, i.e. a saber, rarely encountered).

6th March 2016, 04:36 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Truly astounding.....253 views on this, and no comments. Gav, personally I thank you for posting this, and it was a great opportunity to look further into these Tibetan swords. Hopefully of those out there reading this, someone might have an idea or some information which might add something further.

6th March 2016, 05:38 PM	#3
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Very interesting and well made weapons! I wouldn't mind having one or two examples myself. However, I would like to hazard a guess as to why there are so few replies. These weapons are so scarcely encountered and there has been so little published on them that most of us out here are totally unfamiliar! Tibet and Bhutan are so remote and removed from the discussion of history and politics that in many circles all you get is a blank look when they are mentioned. Only in recent times has tourism by more than a handful of westerners been readily possible. And only briefly in the last 100 years and in WWII has there ever been even minor Western military presence. I do not believe, (and I could be wrong here!), that either place has had any significant presence of Western missionaries. Back in the heyday of collection building in the 19th century, missionaries, military, and business tourism/exploration were the primary customary manner by which ethnographic material arrived on Western shores. Except for the few pieces making their way West via a small trickle-out along diplomatic or traditional trade, you just don't see them.

6th March 2016, 05:56 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	The things you point out are very true, and thank you so much for writing here. That was a thoughtful thing to do. I can only speak for myself, in that these kinds of unusual and esoteric weapons are inherently exciting and all the more interesting for these very reasons. I am a desperately curious person, and obsessive research maniac as can be seen in the many years Ive written here. My goal has always been to search, find, study and share information and to place it here in hopes of us all learning together. With the net these days it is unbelievable that I can find online things that used to take me months even years to find in the early years B.C. (before computers!). Many guys are discouraged from certain kinds of weapons because they cannot afford or find them. For me, I learned long ago that it was the learning, not the collecting that was my thing. The beauty of these pages is that I can enjoy and learn from the pieces other guys who can find and buy them. The added plus is that we all can. Thank you again for adding your comments here, very much appreciated.

6th March 2016, 06:12 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I agree. Tibet was always "forbidden place" for the Westerners. For centuries, their only outside contacts were essentially with China and Mongolia. The Younghusband expedition opened a small crack into it, but Japanese occupation of China and following civil wars once again made Tibet a very unattractive place to venture in. And, finally, Chinese occupation... All in all, real Tibetan antiques and especially weapons are almost unobtainable. BTW, Tibet had very aggressive military policies centuries ago, but the current Dalai Lama conducted a brilliant PR campaign to re-market Tibet for the Western consumption as a peaceful paradise. Had it not been for LaRocca's book, most of us would have never known that there are such things as Tibetan weapons.

6th March 2016, 07:07 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Ariel, Thank you so much for the great input on this , and these very nice examples. Actually the term Gav uses is correct as I mentioned was included in conversations with Philip Tom and the data from LaRocca. All best regards Jim

13th March 2016, 01:24 PM	#9
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Nice Kora Ariel, I'd be inclined to pin yours down as Tibet too. To my eye but without formal factual data to back it up, the rounded Stupa pommel arrangement, the form of the disc guard and the slender blade point to Tibet for me. I'd love to replace the very early Tibetan Kora I sold years ago but the wheels must keep turning so other treasures like the Tibet sword can be obtained and studied. Gavin

7th March 2016, 12:09 AM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Gavin and Jim, I learn by osmosis:-) Ke Tri and Tsep Sa is something I absorbed from Artzi' site. Look there for "Tibetan sword" I have LaRocca's book and even happened to see the actual exhibition. I trust his references, but where did Artzi get his names? He did not invent them, after all. Dpa' dam is listed by LaRocca as Sked Gri. Is it Ke Tri, pronounced slightly differently? Are there differences between spear-pointed and hatchet-pointed blades? One needs to be born in in a monastery in Lhasa to figure out how to pronounce those convoluted strings of letters:-))))

7th March 2016, 09:38 AM	#13
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Philip, The same Donald LaRocca gives a variant name of Dpa Dam as Sked Gri. Isn't it the very same Ke Tri that we knew as a definition for straight , parallel sided, hatchet-pointed blades? You are right: academic phonetizations vs. "street" ones are always different. Professor Higgins made a living of it long time ago :-))) And on top of it, local accents and dialects add yet another level of complexity /confusion. Australian English vs. Glaswegian, vs. Southern American, vs. Midwest vs " Brooklinese" or Bostonian etc, etc sound differently . And each of them would be transliterated differently by well -meaning educated persons of different ethnic backgrounds and different native languages. Kilich, Klych or Kilij? Kard, Kord or Karud? Shashka or Chacheka? That would be just a funny "name game" had it not been the mechanism of "creating" artificial terminology for the allegedly different variety of weapons we are dealing with. Rather amusing, isn't it?

7th March 2016, 01:04 PM	#14
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams All Tibetan weapons must be one of the most difficulot subjects in our entire ensemble thus I note how well this thread examines this extraordinary subject . I offer this from https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/tb...tbar.htmSwords Quote."Swords were the primary handheld weapons in Tibet from at least the seventh up to the early twentieth century. In addition to their utilitarian function, they could also be clear indicators of rank and status, based on their quality or amount of decoration. In some situations, such as among the Khampa tribesmen of eastern Tibet, the sword was an essential part of male dress and still remains an important element of traditional attire. The sword also has rich symbolic significance within Tibetan Buddhism, particularly as the Sword of Wisdom, which represents the ability to cut through spiritual ignorance, and is an important attribute of many deities, such as Manjushri. Many Tibetan swords are distinguished by light and dark lines that make a hairpin-shaped pattern visible on the surface of the blade (36.25.1464). This was formed by combining harder and softer iron, referred to as “male iron” and female iron” in traditional Tibetan texts, which was folded, nested together, and forged into one piece in a blade-making technique called pattern welding. The hilts are often made of engraved silver set with coral or turquoise, or in some rare instances are intricately chiseled and pierced in iron that is damascened in gold and silver (1995.136)".Unquote. See also http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/13/ar...armo.html?_r=0 https://books.google.com.om/books?id...eapons&f=false Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.